RAD FEM 12! Booking for the London conference is now open!

[DaisyHayes]

How exciting! The website looks like it is accepting bookings.

Are any of you planning on coming? I am fully expecting the FWR Mumsnetters to take over the open mic section of the evening do

Interesting perspective on this from The F-Word

Typical F-Word!

Just been reading the comments on the F-Word article. Virtually every single women only or lesbian only space where I live is open to transexuals. But it seems there are lots of people who think that no space should ever just be for biological women. I really hope the conference organisers don't cave in from the pressure on this one

Not read the article you're referring to, but the F word censors what gets published on their comments. So you will only get one perspective.

Why is there a need to exclude women who weren't born in a female body?

Indeed, how are they actually checking? Do you have to present your birth certificate?

WidowWadman, the vast majority of trans* folk do not choose to surgically alter their bodies or even want to. There are also a number who do not engage with even ?presenting? as the opposite sex to that which they were assigned at birth (e.g. ?female? clothing, hairstyle etc.)

Which mean that we are talking about having (potentially) a person with a beard, a deep voice, ?male? clothing and a penis saying that they are a woman. (Because they know/feel that they are a woman.)

Whatever - I have no argument with individuals living their lives as they see fit. If that is what that person chooses to do to make themselves happy, I?m certainly not going to be shouting that they?re wrong to do so.

But when someone who identifies as a transwoman - and ?presents? as I have described above - wishes to enter a space like Rad Fem 12, do you not see how that is a problem for (some) FAAB radical feminists?

And do you not think that they have a right to create a (tiny, one-off) space where there is no possibility at all of them having to be in a workshop with someone with a penis and a beard to discuss rape or contraception or pregnancy?

transgender with a beard?

woman with a penis? God be praised, it's a miracle!

Also, some "women who weren't born in a female body" actually are not very interested in issues which do relate to biological women - a very clear reason for having an exclusivly biological women only space. Especially during a time when the War on Women is trying to eradicate women's bodily autonomy.

Julia Serano, a very prominant and well respected trans* activist decribes herself as a feminist but at times this is very problematic (as far as I'm concerened) because she is explicit in being not that interested in issues which don't apply to her.

For instance recently she complained on Twitter that feminists are focusing too much on issues of contraception, pregnancy and abortion and there are other issues which we should be concentrating on.

A woman with a penis, yes that is correct.

"Next time you talk about childbirth, remember not everyone who gives birth is a mother.

Next time you talk about how many women are raped, remember that a significant group of those women, of us, don?t have vaginas.

Next time you talk about sisterhood, try to remember that you have nonbinary siblings and brothers with the organs you use to label your sisterhood and sisters who lack them.

Try to remember that penis is not the enemy because women have them too.

Try to remember that theorizing about gender isn?t very helpful when you don?t know shit about the people who experience it most directly, most vividly, most painfully."

I know women born as women who have beard growth - would they have to undergo knicker-checking to be admitted? Reminds me of all the offensive foolishness of idiots going on about how Florence Welch or Lady Gaga must be trans.

Basically, you're saying a woman born as a woman is ok to present in masculine clothing and a crew cut, whilst a transgender woman isn't? Why? How can you reject hyper-feminity and at the same time make others who reject it too out to be less of a woman? That's confused to say the least.

Yeah, that's what I was saying WidowWadman - exactly that. I'm all hung up on the shade of the foundation

Tell me - you'd be cool with someone with a penis, a beard, 'male clothing', an Adams apple, a deep voice taking part in a workshop for female rape surviors because they feel that they a woman, would you?

You think that it would be totally cool with vulnerable biological women who are looking for a safe space? To be engaging in exercises and sharing traumatic confidences with someone who is a man in every respect other than the fact that he says that he 'feels like a woman'?

DaisyHayes - this hirsute adam's-apply masculine transwoman in a lumberjack shirt who wants to invade rape workshops sounds like a straw(wo?)man to me, to be honest.

And you have not answered my question about cis women who have beard growth due to hormonal problems, or those with more masculine features -do they have to present their birth certificate? Will their genitals be checked? Will they make other women uncomfortable simply because of their appearance and thus should be excluded?

kim - Have you met many Trans people? Because like most feminists who value and try to create women only space I have. And I have met Trans "women" like that. And Kim, some Trans "women" actually do recognise that biological women might want some space just for them.

Alice - I know the F-Word do that. Early on in reading it I tried to make some very polite comments around transgender issues. They were never published as apparently it is "transphobic" to think there is any value in any space for women born women.

"There are plenty of issues which affect all people who want to challenge the patriarchy." Yes there are, including issues that affect men. there are loads and loads of spaces for women, Transexuals and men to come together to discuss feminism. This is one space that personally I value.

Widow - Do you not think biological women should ever be able to meet by themselves in any circumstances?

Yes I have met the over feminised ones as well. But I agree I haven't met any Trans "women" with beards. Agree people can have an opinion about Trans issues and give their opinion. I just get annoyed that some people see any space for biological women as transphobic

Eats - I'm not interested in the genetic make-up of people who identify as women, nor do I feel the need to check their pants - if someone identifies as a woman, that's in my view all that's needed.

I don't see the need for a "biological women only" space, as I don't see the need to distinguish or put in a hierarchy of womanlyness.

Still waiting for the answer to my question. Why does that get ignored whilst the same old stereotypes keep getting repeated?

WidowWadman - "Do you know many trans folk who say feel like a woman who present with a beard, deep voice and "male" clothing? Doesn't sound very trans to me.".

Careful now - that sounds kinda transphobic^.

'Cause, yeah, it's a thing. The whole "I am a woman even if I present as a man" stuff.

And as to whether or not a transwoman would want to participate in a reproduction workshop, I have been to an abortion seminar where a transwoman started 'calling out' "cis-sexist language" because "some women don't have wombs".

So might a transwoman rock up to such a workshop at Rad Fem 12? Well I guess it's a possibility, because, actually, some (not all trans* folk by any chalk) trans activism in the past has been profoundly insensitive to the specific needs and concerns of FAAB women.

In terms of whether or not this is a straw man ? off the top my head, there is the famous Kimberly Nixon case in Canada:

A (not so) brief précis of the case:

Nixon is a transwoman who, despite the fact that she had been accepted onto the training programme Battered Women?s Support Center which DID welcome transwomen, insisted that she had a right to volunteer at Vancouver Rape Relief which held a FAAB women counsellors only policy, TO MAKE A POLITICAL POINT.

When Rape Relief maintained that she would not be able to volunteer as a rape counsellor, Nixon made a formal Human Rights Complaint.

When Vancouver Rape Relief collective women were informed of the complaint the women were sorry to have offended Kimberly Nixon and quickly tried to make amends.

The Rape Relief collective women offered a formal written apology, and suggested that Kimberly could support the rape crisis line and shelter work by joining a fundraising committee. The collective also offered to apologise in-person to Kimberly as well as offering $500 in acknowledgement of Kimberly's hurt feelings. The Rape Relief women also requested mediation. Kimberly Nixon rejected these offers.

A lengthy and expensive BC Human Rights tribunal ensued. After this, it went to the Supreme Court who found that Vancouver Rape Relief had not discriminated against Kimberly Nixon and the group does have the right to freedom of association to organize as women only.

The Supreme Court of Canada dismissed Kimberly Nixon's request to appeal the B.C. Court of Appeals decision. The Supreme Court further awarded Vancouver Rape Relief with "costs" which Kimberly Nixon has not paid back.

Rad Fem 12 isn?t some massive organisation hell bent on trying to harm the needs of trans*people.

It?s a group of women with no budget, no funding and jobs and families and responsibilities to manage, trying to make a space ? the first one in the UK for decades - for radical feminists to share experiences and ideas in a space which they define the boundaries of. That?s all.

What was your question?