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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism and the idea of a man or woman trapped in the wrong body are contradictory ideas

631 replies

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 07/05/2012 19:25

This post is in response to another thread where posters wanted to discuss this, but didn't want to derail the thread. So I said I would start the thread here.

A basic element of feminism is that women and men are born as that sex - biologically men/women, but society socialises us to behave as our alloted gender. Gender is the idea that women and men behave in certain ways. And we are all socialised in this even if we reject it or try to as adults.

For example, research shows that people treat the same babies differently depending on whether they are told they are boys or girls. The media pumps images to our DCs about what a girl or a boy should be interested in, play with and wear. Teachers are more likely to allow boys to speak out to the whole class than girls - well researched.

Feminism challenges these gender constructs and says that girls and boys can enjoy doing the same things, etc. Transexuals talk about being born in the wrong body e.g. born in a male body, but feeling like they are really a girl/woman.

But this is obviously at odds with feminism. Sex is a biological fact. You are born in a male or female body. Behaving or feeling like a man/woman is supposed to feel, is an artificial construct. Because what does a man or woman feel like? We only feel like ourselves as individuals. So any idea of feeling a man or a woman or a boy or a girl is based on an artifacial idea of how a boy/girl is supposed to feel.

So the basic idea of being born in the wrong body, is contradictory to the basic ideas of feminism.

OP posts:
hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 13:03

Seahouses - it all depends how you define irrational arguments then doesn't it?

Nyac · 08/05/2012 13:03

You call arguments fascist and expect that to stand unchallenged Eclectic. I see.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:05

Seahouses, to make it clear, I argued that male/female and man/woman are not universally mutually exclusive categories. That does not deny the existence of men and women

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:06

Yes, but there is an agreed understanding of analogical reasoning, logic and so on that people usually use to define rational argument. I can disagree with somebody's point and still understand that they are arguing in a rational way.

I don't agree with Bennifer because I think her factual explanation of what intersex conditions are is wrong, but it doesn't mean that I consider how she argues that point to be irrational.

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:07

So what is a man, then, Bennifer?

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 13:07

Where is this agreed understanding? Who says? Whose understanding is it?

Nyac · 08/05/2012 13:09

You didn't answer my question Bennifer - how do you think you arrived on this planet if it wasn't because of two people from mutually exclusive sexes reproducing to create you?

I also haven't seen an answer to whether people here would accept a white person from a white ethnic background describing themselves as black, and get offended on their behalf if black people didn't accept them.

What I've noticed in these sorts of discussions is that the pro-trans people like firing out questions but never really answer them or feel like they have to justify their position. That's because their position is the patriarchal one, so it's not necessary to justify it. The power is on their side. It's why men can now claim to be women and be legally accepted as such and why people who object or disagree are threatened with the law in some cases.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:10

SeaHouses, I don't know! If I were to write an essay on it, I'm sure it would be more complicated than "an adult human being with XY chromosomes".

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:11

Thousands of years of teaching and thought Hathor. I couldn't tell you the entire history of it because it's not something I know more about than most people. You could google 'reason' or 'rationality' though.

hathorisverytired · 08/05/2012 13:12

As could you Seahouses.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:12

Nyac, you've missed my point - it doesn't matter that my Dad identifies as male, and my mum as female, we're talking about people who for whatever reason don't fit the boxes that 99.9% people fit in.

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 13:12

NYAC, Please explain to me how trans gender is muscling in. Please explain to me why this is so important to you and why you really believe that transgender is oppressing women.

I really haven't understood that so far from this thread.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 08/05/2012 13:13

Eclectic - Sorry I thought the link was useful, so sorry you didn't find it so. I know the author is pretty angry in places, so I wouldn't have put it how she did. But I do think the basic arguments are valid e.g. around intersex.

OP posts:
SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:17

Bennifer, people contest the meaning of things all the time. But generally they contest the meaning of something because they want to replace it with a different meaning that they think is more appropriate for ethical reasons or some other reason.

I'm not having a go at you in particular, but it does come up a lot on these threads that people say woman doesn't mean XYZ, but then say they don't know what it means, how to define it, or that it doesn't mean anything at all (not that you have said the last one, but other people have).

I think it is one thing to have a different idea about what women are, but another thing altogether, to destabilise the meaning of a group of people so that it becomes totally meaningless. It is a way of saying that group of people just don't exist. I think that comes up a lot on trans threads, but doesn't seem to me to be what trans people want to do; it seems to me to be why a lot of people argue on these threads - because they want the word 'woman' to have no real meaning at all.

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 13:18

"What I've noticed in these sorts of discussions is that the pro-trans people like firing out questions but never really answer them or feel like they have to justify their position. That's because their position is the patriarchal one, so it's not necessary to justify it. The power is on their side. It's why men can now claim to be women and be legally accepted as such and why people who object or disagree are threatened with the law in some cases."

Women can become men legally...

PrideOfChanur · 08/05/2012 13:20

If transgender is oppressing women by destroying our reality and denying our physical existence then it is doing the same for men. It isn't a horrid plot to do down women.

Does the white people wanting to be described and accepted as black actually happen? If not I don't think it is a valid argument.
If it does I'd be interested in learning more...

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 08/05/2012 13:21

Yes men can become women legally. Just like legally men can't be raped. Doesn't mean the law is right

OP posts:
Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:21

My argument if it isn't clear enough is that even though the vast majority of people identify as male or female, a small minority do not, and (ignoring psychology for the moment) some people's sex is biologically ambiguous.

That very fact, if we can agree it to be true, is sufficient to demonstrate that male/female is not a perfect universally applicable divide, and that sex may be a continuous spectrum, even if most people sit at an extreme end. That does not change the identity of anyone for whom their sex or gender is not ambiguous.

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:21

Well I could Hathor, but I'm not asking about it in the context of this thread and you did ask. I think the internet would have better sources for you than my personal knowledge. I am interested in the topic, mainly because I've been looking at age appropriate resources for DD to improve her analogical reasoning, but I think any indepth discussion of it would be going off at a massive tangent from this thread.

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:28

I'm not a trans activist, and have no desire to replace the definition of woman with anything, but I'm merely recognising the reality that woman is more than "adult human being with XX chromosomes"

SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:28

Bennifer, there are two different issues there - what people identify as and what a person's sex is. If somebody has, for example, Turner's syndrome, that isn't ambiguous or on a spectrum. It is a defined, discrete physical state.

Many people on here are feminists and are very uncomfortable with their gender role, but that doesn't move them along a spectrum and make them further away from the female end. I don't suddenly get a more male looking forehead because I don't like my gender role. Sex and gender are two different things that are not on the same spectrum; I'm not convinced either of them sit on a spectrum. It isn't a choice between binary and spectrum.

EatsBrainsAndLeaves · 08/05/2012 13:28

Bennifer - For some intersex people the sex is ambigous. But transexuals are not intersex. Their biological sex is perfectly clear. So they sit at either end of the spectrum

OP posts:
SeaHouses · 08/05/2012 13:33

Bennifer - that is my point. I don't think that most people who come on these threads and attempt to destabilise the category 'women' do so because they have any real interest in the trans issue. They do so for other reasons.

If you want to say that women means a particular thing, then say it. But as I sort of said, in my first post, it isn't actually tolerant or lacking in prejudice to say you believe in something which you actually have no way of describing. We could all claim to be tolerant of things which defy description or explanation.

EclecticShock · 08/05/2012 13:33

Eats, I was referring to Nyacs point on it being a patriarchal viewpoint.

See what you think of this link in relation to 'gender essentialists'

m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/mar/17/stern-review-male-rape?cat=commentisfree&type=article

Bennifer · 08/05/2012 13:35

I agree transsex are not intersex, but I'm using the former to make a point that could be applied to the latter.

Perhaps we could do with changing the word feminism to be more accurate - perhaps XXism might be better?

"It isn't a choice between binary and spectrum."

I think I may struggle to get my head around this paradox!