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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

429 replies

Alittlefeminist · 22/02/2012 17:09

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 22/02/2012 17:20

I agree with you but I won't be signing that aggressive petition.

GrimmaTheNome · 22/02/2012 17:24

I wouldn't have said that petition was 'aggressive'.

However, I don't think the only title available to women on official forms should be Ms, Dr does quite nicely too thanks Wink

planetpotty · 22/02/2012 17:25

Personally I think it's on forms so we are addressed properly. Don't flame tis just my opinion.

I like my Mrs title and surely lots of others do also. Otherwise we would all choose to stay Miss or go with Ms.

For me we have a choice what to call ourselves and forms just reflect that.

yellowraincoat · 22/02/2012 17:27

Most forms have Ms on them these days. Perfectly happy to choose it and let the others gradually day out, which I'm sure they will eventually anyway.

C'est bon the French though.

BartletForAmerica · 22/02/2012 17:50

Why can't people choose? I am Mrs or Dr now (as the mood takes me) and was Miss or Dr before. I have never been or wanted to be Ms.

lollygag · 22/02/2012 18:17

Hooray! 125 years of Feminist activism turn out not to have been completely wasted after all.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 22/02/2012 18:43

I'm with Bartlet and planetpotty. I prefer to be called Mrs, and I know unmarried women who choose to be called Miss. I absolutely agree that forms should offer Ms as an option, but why, oh why does this HAVE to mean that Mrs/Miss must go?

Fwiw - I do have good, well-thought-out reasons for my choice of title - it isn't something I've adopted because I am some sort of uneducated, dim stepford wife - just as the people who choose Ms have good, well-thought-out reasons for choosing that and (possibly) disliking Mrs/Miss. I respect their choice, and simply ask to have my choice respected in return.

Mominatrix · 22/02/2012 18:50

Perhaps the French should just come up with a form of Ms.?

BasilRathbone · 22/02/2012 18:50

I think we should all just be Mrs, as we used to be.

If you look at Tudor Documents, Jane Seymour was referred to as Mrs Seymour (short for Mistress, whcih was simply any adult woman).

rosy71 · 22/02/2012 19:31

The French don't seem to have a form of Ms like we do. Consequently they have to identify whether they are married or not. If we don't want our marital status known, we can choose Ms. I suppose that's the difference.

If you look at Tudor Documents, Jane Seymour was referred to as Mrs Seymour (short for Mistress, whcih was simply any adult woman).

I once saw a grave which read "Mrs Sarah Powell, daughter of Thomas Powell." I take it she was an unmarried daughter.

AnnieLobeseder · 22/02/2012 23:05

I have to wonder why we need to use titles which distinguish by gender at all.

But I HATE HATE HATE how our female titles are dependent on marital status. We must be one of the only cultures in the world where a women doesn't get to take an adult title until she is married. Unmarried women don't matter, aren't adults, just children whose opinions don't count. How anyone can accept that is beyond me.

BlingLoving · 23/02/2012 09:57

I have to admit that I'm becoming increasingly militant on this one. And while in almost all other areas, I do respect the choices of others, I whole heartedly support the new French approach and feel that women should no longer be given a choice of being called Miss or Mrs. This is a controversial view, I know. But I am tired of women telling me they like being Mrs, that they get more respect as a Mrs, that it makes them feel more connected to their DH. Women who I know are intelligent, independent, strongly-feminist and yet who still think it's okay for them to be treated better because they are married to a man? That their marriage needs to be public to all and that it gives them credibility in a way that is not necessary or true for their DHs.

So, unpopular though my view will be, I vote for banning Miss and Mrs. Force women to identify themselves as individuals, not wives. And see if they feel the difference. Or even if they can see the very way that women who are not married or who, god forbid, choose not to advertise their marital status are treated differently.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/02/2012 10:02

I have to wonder why we need to use titles which distinguish by gender at all.

We don't. If there are some specific form where gender is relevant, then it would need an M/F box to sort out the Drs, Profs, Revs anyway - titles don't even do that job properly.

workshy · 23/02/2012 10:03

I'm a Miss, I've always been a Miss -was with partner for 14 years but not once did I ever consider myself a Ms

I hate the term Ms, how do you even pronounce it?

there is nothing wrong with people wanting to be a Mrs -it's their choice

I don't consider Miss to be childish as I never refer to my DDs as Miss, I use their names

TBH I much prefer when people just use their proper name -why don't we just ban titles all together?

workshy · 23/02/2012 10:04

x post

ShirleyO · 23/02/2012 10:09

I can get on board with a total ban of titles altogether. Forget Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss shite.

Why the FUCK should I have to tell someone my marital status just because I'm a woman? I was asked if I was a Miss, Mrs or Ms when calling to order some paperclips for work the other day. Who cares? Why do you need to know?

chipmonkey · 23/02/2012 10:49

Well, if you turn it on its head, men don't get a choice about title so why should we?

EdithWeston · 23/02/2012 10:53

"Perhaps the French should just come up with a form of Ms.?"

The French don't need a form of "Ms", because all women, whether married or not, become Madame in ordinary speech when they reach a certain age.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 23/02/2012 11:27

BlingLoving - I certainly do not choose the title Mrs because I feel I am treated better as a result, and I have never heard anyone else say that that was their reasoning for choosing it. Indeed, I would join you in condemning anyone who treats someone differently because of their choice of title.

Sadly, you wish to treat me differently because of my choice of title - you feel my identity, my choices, my beliefs do not matter - somehow I am less of a person because I am Mrs - how do you reconcile that?

margoandjerry · 23/02/2012 11:30

Hurrah! It galls me when my 2.5 year old son gets to be Mr X because Master has largely fallen out of use on official forms but I get the diminutive Miss X.

purpleroses · 23/02/2012 11:53

I agree with BlingLoving - it's hypocritical for women to say they think marital status shouldn't matter and also claim they like being called Mrs - they should examine the reason they like it - ie that they think they get more status from being married.

I'm fine with "Mr and Mrs X" on a personal letter or card - because you're relating to the couple as a couple. But when it's something in the world of work or anywhere else where the woman is functioning as an individual, why on earth should they need to declare or advertise that they are married or not?

Chocladoodle · 23/02/2012 12:09

Correct me if I wrong, but isn't the French dropping Mademoiselle only on official documents ie passports. Therefore all little girls will now be officially Madame also. (which seems a little bizarre).

They are not actually putting a ban on grown woman using Mademoiselle in everyday usage if that is the title that they still want be referrred as.

Also, I think, France's culture differs from the UK's in that there still remains a degree of respecting others by addressing them with their title. Aren't Germany also planning on dropping Fraulein?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 23/02/2012 12:12

Purpleroses - I assume that's aimed (at least partly) at me. I assure you that I do not believe I get more status for being married, and that is not the reason that I choose Mrs as my title - and, as I said earlier, I haven't come across any other woman who has said they choose the title Mrs because they feel they get treated better.

I can also honestly say that I don't think I get treated any better now than I did before I was married, when I used the title Miss.

What bothers me most about this debate is the way that some people who prefer the title Ms feel that their needs and wants are so much more important and somehow valid, than mine. If you are to have Ms as an option, why can I not have Mrs as an option too? It really doesn't have to be an either/or situation - forms can state:

Title - Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss/Other _

Then everyone can be happy.

It is not right for you to gain your happiness at the cost of others - and in this instance it is not neccessary.

BlingLoving · 23/02/2012 12:29

Right. I am prepared to be flamed.

STDG - you don't say why you use Mrs but you say it's not because you get more respect. Fair enough, but I have heard many women, including on MN, say that they feel they are treated with more respect because they're married. Perhaps you use it simply because you are married and feel that's how it's done. Or perhaps its because you are proud of your relationship with your Dh and want it to be visible to all. I don't know.

However, I believe that all women who choose to use Mrs are misguided. I wish I didn't. But, while you and millions of other women may have lots of good solid reasons for it, ultimately, you are choosing to define yourselves in public by the fact that you are connected to a man. In a way that no man ever does in respect of his relationship to a woman.

We use titles because our society still says that it's not appropriate to address someone you don't know, in a formal environment, by their first name but that we should use a title that at the very least demonstrates their gender, but may also reflect their education or professional role. Or in the case of women, whether or not they're married. That may well change and we'll simply be B Loving or Bling or Bling Loving. But until then, I wish women would all become Ms so that there's no disparity in the information I give vs that of DH.

PS I had an interesting experience a few months ago. A very pleasant delivery person arrived to deliver something for DH. I answered the door with DS in the background. He greeted me with "Hello M'am, Mrs DH Surname?" and when I gave him my own name for the form as I didn't take DH's name, he then started calling me by my first name. Now, that may be because he now knew my first name, but I suspect it was because I had a different name to the person on the parcel, was looking after a baby and looking domestic, so he assumed therefore that I was the nanny or similar and that therefore I did not need to be referred to in a more formal manner. I suspect if I'd been Mrs DH he would have continued to call me Ma'm or Mrs DH as I would have been worthy of more respect. For the record, he was unfailingly polite in both formats and I was not in the slightest bit offended to be called Bling rather than Ms Loving. But I found it interesting.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 23/02/2012 13:03

You aren't going to get flamed - this is in feminism, and so the bare fact that I have chosen Mrs as my title means I am wrong - dim, subjugated and wrong. As far as many in MN feminism are concerned, this is a black and white issue and because I do not agree with the feminist view, I must clearly be wrong.

I honestly do not understand why this debate can only be 'won' by Ms being the only option, as if my identity is a fair price to pay for other women to get what they want. It honestly feels as if, by disagreeing with a feminist viewpoint, I am immediately marked down as being second class.