"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

[Alittlefeminist]

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

But people actually do change their names when they want to "disappear", so why would the actual real-life effect be any different when a woman changes her name after marriage? This issue was highlighted for me recently when I helped organised a 30 year (all-girls) school reunion. It was actually quite difficult to track down old schoolfriends in a way which would never have been an issue if they were men.

And family units come in different shapes and sizes. My DS has his fathers surname and DH is his stepdad. It would have felt wrong for my son to be the odd one out namewise, so we all have our own surnames. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it just works for us.

I changed my name when I got married so that I had the same last name as my children who took my husband's name. It made sense to us all to have the same name as a family iyswim and technically my name was my father's anyway.

But I have been "Ms" since I was old enough to spot the unfairness of my brother reaching 16 and becoming a "Mr" whereas I had to wait for a man to marry me to reach womanhood at which point any idiot trying to sell me insurance would know my married status before I knew their name.

Good on the French!

I just have no understanding of the mindset that miss = child. It's completely alien to me. As is the suggestion changing names on marriage means your identity has been erased.

Sorry "Lapsed", that wasn't in reply to you. What I meanT was my husband and children all had a different name to me so I was the odd one out and constantly being presumed to have that name anyway.

I also didn't mean to imply that everyone who sells insurance is an idiot either. Can you tell I've been getting a lot of unwanted cold calls lately? I'm having a morning of being rude to everyone, entirely unintentional I promise!

I have referred to myself as Ms from when I was a teen.
I think what pisses me off the most about the titles thing is, say someone phones my partner they don't ask him which title he is, he is a man therefore is Mr.
I am clearly a woman, it is no ones business whether I am a married one or not.

I would infinitely prefer cold callers to know my marital status than to address me by my first name. It's bloody rude.

Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but try as I can, I'm unable to come up with reasons why a person's marital status is relevant information on most forms.

I wear a wedding ring, as does DH - that is our choice. Anyone who meets me, a sales assistant who serves me for example (or even someone who sits next to me on the bus) will know I'm married. I refer to "my husband" in conversation as well. But why, when we are filling out 99% of forms, do any of us, male or female NEED to declare our marital status?

I can see why if claiming means-tested benefits, or for medical purposes ("does this person live alone, or do they have someone at home who can care for them?") but why does a random company need to know when I sign up for an online account with them? Or any of the other gazillions of examples. Why do these organisations need to know whether we are potentially available as sexual partners? I really can't think of any other logical reason why they are asking!

ruby :o
maryz I agree, the fact I am Mrs and have taken DHs surname does not make me less of a woman or DHs property. It was my choice and if others want to be Ms that's fine but I don't see why I should have to

I entirely agree with getting rid of 'miss', but I'm not keen on the phrasing on the OP petition - just sounds a bit inelegant.

Anyway. For as long as some women insist on being addressed in a way which takes into account the fact that they've got married, the 'choice' of Ms cannot work as it was intended to ('I am a woman, as opposed to a Mr'), because all it can mean is 'I am a woman who won't tell you whether I'm married or not' - so we're STILL defined by marriage, because your choice is
Married Woman
Unmarried Woman
Woman who won't say whether she's married.

And so marriage remains the defining thing. Ms can never be an equally weighted option whilst Mrs and Miss exist.

And I'm sick of being called 'Mrs DP's Name', or worse still 'Mrs DP's First Name and Surname'. That's inaccurate. Calling a married woman Ms Surname is not.

I think it's polite to address someone as Ms if you don't know whether they are Mrs or Miss, so I usually use Ms if in doubt, but I personally have no problem with being addressed as Miss. If it was good enough for Christabel and Sylvia Pankhurst, it's good enough for me.

I haven't changed my name on getting married, didn't make a big hoo ha about announcing it to everyone, and most of the cards we got sent in the post were addressed to Mr and Mrs X. I was a little surprised that people seemed to have made the assumption my name would have changed...but then, if I hadn't made a point of letting people know, how would they know either way? (I was rather hoping they would work it out from the fact I'd changed my status to 'married' on Facebook but not changed my name. Oh well...)

Am a little surprised by how defensive some posters are about their choices - i don't get the impression that anyone is dictating anything. I am genuinely curious why women make the choices they do however, especially given that the traditions we are discussing date directly back to a time when women were the property of their fathers and then their husbands. Back in the 70s, some feminists refused to use their "maiden" names on the grounds that this defined them as the property of their fathers! So they made up new ones which didn't work either.

Maybe we should consider the Icelandic family name tradition. John and Mary have 2 kids, Lucy and Fred. Lucy is known as Lucy Marysdaughter, and Fred is called Fred Johnsson. Simples! (?)

My brother and his wife have kept their own surnames but the children use both together. I quite like the American convention of simply adding your husband's surname to your own could be a compromise.

I think it's polite to address someone as Ms if you don't know whether they are Mrs or Miss

But that kind of sums it up - use ms until you know whether they 'are' one of the two 'proper' titles! So still not a 'proper' option, is it?

There are lots of things the Pankhursts had to put up with that I wouldn't. Inadequate sewerage was good enough for Charlotte Bronte......

TheOriginal....guess I am just a bit old-fashioned.

I really don't have a problem with Ms, anyone who wants to call themselves Ms has my 100% backing, but I want to keep being a Miss! And yet I would never, ever have wanted to be a Mrs. I think it must just be me that's weird...

The problem is that the choice to use Mrs or Miss has a direct effect on people who'd prefer not to be addressed in a way which relates to marital status.

I don't really care whether the title is Miss, Mrs or Ms, but I wish that women didn't have to be asked whether they are married, unmarried, or don't want to say whether they're married every time they fill out a form.

Whereas to me, if you want Mrs to remain, you do want women to have to say they are a) married b) not married or c) don't want to say every time.

And that is as much 'dictating' as the other!

Yes, I too hope it will die out naturally without any old ladies being made to think of themselves as Ms! My mother and grandmother were/are Mrses, some of my best friends are mrses, etc..... However if you only had Ms (or Mrs, even, to be more directly parallel to the French) I don't think anyone need be offended.

Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms on a form dictates to me that I must be addressed in a way which has to do with my marital status, even though I don't want to be.
Mr/Ms only on a form dictates to you that you must use a title which denotes you are a woman, even though you'd prefer people to address you in a way which takes into account the fact that you are married. But, y'know, you can still tell people!

I see the second as less unfair.

The best thing on forms would be to have one box for Mr and another that says Mrs/Miss/Ms. Then people can simply tick the box they want. And then to use Ms to address all adult women, thinking of it as shorthand for "Mrs, Miss or Ms", just like Mr is shorthand for Mister.

I think it's interesting on this thread that nearly all the support for the status quo has come from married women who want to use Mrs. I think that in itself shows clearly that there is a status attached to being married that they are keen to have. But women should be opposing a system whereby status (for women only) comes from being married, not arguing for their right to choose this status - a choice that is not open to those of us who are not married and whose only other option is Miss, (the same title as their dauthers, and a much more juvenile one that Mr - which these days would be given to their sons). Either that or have Mrs as the status for all adult women, whether married or not.

Any thoughts on why declaration of marital status on forms should be deemed necessary for anyone, male OR female?

It isn't deemed necessary for men, so shouldn't be for women!

I wonder whether many people just feel 'Mrs' is more 'grown up'? And possibly only ever encountered 'Ms' as children from slightly loopy heavily right-on Drama teachers like mine who banned school plays becuase 'drama shouldn't be competitive' etc....? But we can only 'reclaim' Ms if it is understood that all it means is 'woman', not 'woman who for some perverse reason won't say whether she's a Married Lady or a Spinster'.

I'd be quite happy if all adult women could be Mrs personally. Would seem no need for Ms any longer as Mrs wouldn't be denoting marital status. But not sure whether everyone would feel the same as me