"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

[Alittlefeminist]

Hurray for French feminists who have pushed through a revision of women's titles: www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/22/mademoiselle-removed-from-french-official-forms :)

Let's do the same!

SDTB - Why do you prefer to use Mrs?

Because it shows my relationship to my husband and my children, and links us all together as a family. If I were Miss, I would have my maiden name, and to me, that would look as if I were standing apart from dh and from my boys. I would not use Ms because it is not a proper word, as far as I am concerned, and is an ugly and unpleasant sound.

Please note - the above are my beliefs and I am not saying that anyone who does not take their husband's surname or use Mrs is any less attached to their family and partner than I am.

Yes, I realise that people's reasons are personal, and won't all be the same.

But why would you want to have your relationship with your DH acknowledged in the workplace? Or any other context where you function as an individual? And being Mrs doesn't link you to him specifically, it just says that you are married to someone - ie it denotes your marital status.

And why does being Mrs link you to your children? Your surname might link you to them, but not being Mrs surely? The whole point of having Ms is that you can use it whilst continuing to share your DCs surname if that matters to you.

Would agree that Ms is not the most beautiful word, but surely it's the meaning of words that matters not the precise diction?

Mrs, by itself, doesn't link me to my children. Taking dh's surname does that. But to me, it would be ridiculous to do that, and keep Miss as my title, and, as I said, Ms is not an option for me. Again, it is Mrs+Surname that links me to dh, but it would be illogical, for me at least, to have one without the other.

I feel that marriage and family changed things about me - some of my priorities, for example - and that I have changed as a person because of my commitment to my dh and my family, and Mrs shows that, for me - had I remained not married, and remained Miss SDTGMaidenname, I would be a different person now. And I wouldn't have lived with a man and had a family with him, without being married - personal choice, and no criticism of anyone who does it differently, but I felt marriage was the right way for me to do this.

So - given that I dislike Ms, and have never wanted to be a Ms, and given that I am married, for me, the only logical thing was Mrs Dhsurname.

I use Mrs DHSurname too. I honestly hadn't considered it before. I guess I just did it out of unquestioned tradition. If I had liked my maiden name then I guess I might have kept it and gone with Ms.

To be honest though.. at the time of getting married I had fallen out rather badly with my dad and was quite happy to drop 'his' name (we get on better now, though aren't close). I'd rather have the name of a man I had choosen to have in my life than another who I didn't choose. I was pretty at having to give my father's name and profession on my marriage certificate, what on earth did that have to do with anything?

I got my mum to sign as a witness though - which didn't look like too much of a snub for my dad because my DH's father is deceased, so we both had our mums sign.

Of course, I don't think a woman should have to have their surname derived from their husband, or their father, if they don't wish it.

Why do we refer to Drs, Profs and Revs as such outside their professional spheres? Isn't it a bit old fashioned to give them respect based on position? I mean, other professions don't get that. I think Firefighter Fireman Sam and Postie Postal Operative Postman Pat are exceptions rather than the rule. :)

Referring to myself as a wife on forms where it isn't relavent does seem a bit silly now you mention it. But I think it's a habit that society has that it would be difficult to get people enthusiastic about giving up, it just doesn't seem to be a big problem.

I take it the reason some women feel pleased (rather than indifferent) about being called Mrs is that it is a title they associated with adults when they were small so when they begin to call themselves that it makes them feel 'grown up'. Obviously it's a shame if grown unmarried women feel infantilised by being referred to as Miss though.

Do you think that there is actually a difference in how women are treated based on their title though? Or is it more like I feel a little child-like in social situations because I don't drink tea or coffee, and hot drinks were always something I associated with adults. But nobody treats me like a child just because I've turned down a cup (though they can be rather persistant!) it's just an association I have in my mind.

Do married women who use Ms still use their maiden names, or can you do it with married names too?

I agree with BlingLoving too.

What is the point of being given a title relating to our marital status in the 21st century? Why does it matter? If it doesn't matter to a man whether he's "linked to his family and children" by the use of a title, why should it matter to us? And yes, why bother with titles at all?

It all seems very outmoded. It's natural to kick against changes in what we regard as "traditional" as we've grown up with these ideas and cultural habits so they consequently feel "right", but that doesn't make them so - or worth upholding.

If some/many women prefer to retain the option of Miss, Mrs, Ms as it gives them a choice, but upsets those who understandably feel that their marital status is irrelevant, why not leave female titles as they are and introduce Mr (for married men) and Master (for unmarried men) on official forms so that men then have to state whether or not they take their status from being married

What blingloving said.

Choc, germany has dropped Fraulein a long time ago. All women are Frau like all men are Herr, and nobody asks if you are married when ordering paperclips.

"I feel that marriage and family changed things about me - some of my priorities, for example - and that I have changed as a person because of my commitment to my dh and my family, and Mrs shows that, for me - had I remained not married, and remained Miss SDTGMaidenname, I would be a different person now. And I wouldn't have lived with a man and had a family with him, without being married - personal choice, and no criticism of anyone who does it differently, but I felt marriage was the right way for me to do this."

SDTG: I understand all of what you just said. But for me, the fact that your DH does not have any of the same desire to demonstrate that his priorities changed once he got married and had a family is the issue. Why is it necessary for women to demonstrate this in how they're called? I also changed as a person as a result of being married and having DS. My priorities have definitely changed too. So does DH. More so than me in fact. But he doesn't have a new title that reflects the fact that he's now a family man and not a carefree bloke around town so why should I?

I'm sorry if it seems like I'm going on at you. I'm not. It's just how I feel about the whole Mrs thing.

Does anybody use the gender free term "Mx"?

Personally I dislike Ms, I was quite happy using Miss before I was married and I love using Mrs now I am. It is another public declaration that my DH and I are a partnership and I love him. However I understand that others feel differently so I don't understand the problem with having a choice.

Strawberry, I understand why you feel the way you do. But let me ask you this: doesn't it feel strange that you make a public declaration about your partnership with DH every time you go to the bank, or order a new set of curtains online but he never ever does. No tradesman he deals with knows or cares that he is in a loving and successful partnership with you?

Good point well-expressed BlingLoving.

I am married but prefer to use miss. Please don't take that away from me!

smacks own wrist for being a bad feminist

I agree BlingLoving - it's such a one-sided declaration isn't it? It's a the epitome of "man and wife" instead of "husband and wife" I guess.

Bling - I can honestly say it doesn't feel strange to me at all. Maybe it's because my mum is happy as a Mrs as well and my parents have set me a great example of how a good marriage works. I also know that if DH was questioned for any reason or there was a male equivalent he would happily say he was married/ use the equivalent .

BlingLoving - you are assuming that my dh does not have any of the same desire to demonstrate that his priorities changed when he got married - but I am sorry to tell you that you are just plain wrong about that. I have had this discussion with dh, and he says that if there was a man's title that demonstrated that he was married, he would use it.

And anyhow - I thought that the whole point was that I was to make my own decisions, as an independant person, without constantly referring to dh for validation - so why would I need him to change his title in order to validate my choice to change mine?

Why don't I like the Miss/Mrs/Ms choice? Because as long as there are women who insist that they should be able to declare their undying love and commitment daily to paperclip salesmen choose, then they are effectively taking away my choice not to be asked if I'm married, single or bitter divorced lesbian feminist in situations where it is not the least bit relevant.

HazelNutt isn't that what the Ms choice is for? It enables people who don't wish to declare themselves as Miss/Mrs to do so while letting others declare as they wish.

No, I wasn't clear: some women insist that they should be addressed as Mrs because they are married. Therefore people who do not know me, ask me as well: "And is this Miss or Mrs Nutt?" (I have not been asked yet if it might be Ms), basically if I'm married or not. Just having the option to tell them "none of your business" is not the same than not being asked the first place.

Why could we not have it the other way, that everybody would be Ms but you had the option to specify that you are in fact married and committed?

Wouldn't you then be asked if you are a Ms? How is that much different? Not trying to start a fight I'm genuinely interested :) I've never really explored the opposite side of this as I like my Mrs

SDTG - like your DH, if there was an option for my DH to use a married title, he would. And I would then not complain about Mrs. But there isn't. So I see your point. But until my marital status and DH's marital status are seen as equally valid/invalid, I will continue to find Mrs and Miss frustrating when I see other women use it because of the intrinsic double standard.

DH is also used to being referred to as MrLoving. I pointed out that if he wants his name on things, he should start booking hotels and holidays! He is okay with it.

strawberry You wouldn't be asked if you were a Ms because people would ususally be able to see or hear that you were female.

I would prefer to do away with titles altogether. But for as long as some women demand the right to choose their title, women who would rather not be asked do not have that option.