Hi, I am Hully's DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

[Hullygully]

For R.S i have been asked to think, and collect, 10 key points WHY women have suffered from sexism in the past. I can think of HOW, but I am interested in WHY. I would be really interseted and grateful in any thoughts you may have! Thanks!

Right, sorry trying to type and work and chat on phone. So you want me to focus on this do you?

Did I not mention my opinion and the word 'theory' enough time for you to get that I am not trying to pass off what I know as the font of all wisdom?

The Egyptians, Hinduism - both large believers of Mother Goddess.
The west also had the Greeks, the Americans and so on all worshipping their own form of mother goddess.
Even Christianity worships a mother in the figure of Mary.
Now the missionaries largely came from the Roman empire and it was their goal to convert the 'pagans' - thus they came from the west.

All this is just off the top of my head so do feel free to correct as I'm sure you will.

As for the mental health card, don't make me laugh. It's a tactic overused on Mumsnet whenever someone thinks there has been an insult. Who first accused me of lacking in intelligence? Yet when I respond, I am the one rounded one. Well as someone who has a brother with severe learning difficulties, a nephew with Downs and myself a long sufferer of depression I find no insult in what I said. But of course you have chosen to be offended by that therefore there must be offence there, is that right?

Pity you can't just debate like reasonable people without resorting to shouting people down. Anyone would think this was the feminist thread!

nicklebabe - my point I was trying to make earlier on was that many of the translations, actually ALL of them, were made by men who translated the writings according to their own agendas at the time.

Let us have PARD.

The Old testament was written in Hebrew (and some Aramaic), the new in Greek. About 200 yrs before the New was written, the Old was translated into Greek. There is lots of room for interpretation of the ancient Hebraic words.

On god/desses: It makes sense to me that the status of women is entirely bound up with physical strength and fertility. The ancient gods were female and fertility was venerated, precisely because the link between sex and reproduction hadn't been made. Once that was made...etc

How much overlap is there between the meanings of anthropos and andros in NT Greek, nickel? And is there also another word for 'person' being used? Sorry, I can just about read it but I've not studied it so these may be simple questions. I just wondered because I know the vulgate is often more inclined to use 'vir' when the Hebrew of the OT is non-committal, but I don't know about the NT.

What are you trying to prove with teh goddess references?

We know people in teh past have worshipped goddesses. So?

yes, Cliff - you're right.
I saw your post, but i'd forgotten who'd said it by the time i posted.

(Sorry, that was to SirCliff, not Hully. I can see what you're saying Hully.)

Sorry was that to me? Guess it must be as I'm the only one you are not polite to.

See Hully's post in that case.

HullysDS - might be worth looking at this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1357160-Shocking-stunning-horrifying-unmissable-Guardian-report-on-female-invisibility

western missionaries did indeed take patriarchal religion to more pagan cultures such as in africa - that was a long time after christianity had been brought to the pagan masses of the west. there was an order of events.

I smell a blatant discrimination of another kind on this thread. Nicklebabe yes it was me, but your post gets more interest because I've somehow made 2 enemies. Never mind. Funny how those who shout out about discrimination often use it to stamp down on those they disagree with.

Mention religion on Mumsnet and you see discrimination loud and clear. Not that it matters of course. We're just believing loons whose opinions mean FA.

I was polite to you, I think, until you started making rude comments.

Hully's post is quite different from yours.

You seem to be saying that the Roman empire in the West (?!) sent missionaries to people who worshipped the Virgin Mary (??!) who were living to the East of the Roman Empire (???!!), and ... what? What is the point about the goddess worship? Are you suggesting people worshipped goddesses because they associated women with fertility, or are we back on the original point about religion empowering women? It's the latter I'm not really following, TBH.

lrd is a christian as far as i'm aware so think again - another massive innacuracy. you are being very insulting to me, to feminists, to lrd yet claiming to be insulted - most bizarre.

I really take exception to that dig about the feminist section, actually. It is impossible to have a reasoned debate about discrete theoretical topics like this one when people insist on bringing their personal lives into it, and reading slights into every post they disagree with. I don't know about anyone else, but I feel really disinclined to even read the kind of posts that start "As a mother..." etc etc, when we are discussing world politics and history.

Can we agree not to do that, stick to facts where possible, and just accept that a debate will involve disagreement and not actually mean a personal attack on you, your family and all you hold dear? (general 'you' there) Because this is exactly why these threads go pear shaped.

What is this discrimination then?

I have no problem making a discrimination between someone who's talking sense, and someone who's talking rubbish and won't admit it. One is interesting annd the other's a waste of time.

Let us have PARD.

DS is 14, an example should be set.

We can disagree, but with PARD.

santa - yes but the west went about it with much more rigour and shall we say determination? Or enforcement? Either way, thanks to those zealous missionaires what was left of the pagan religions was almost wiped out.

Look, if I came across as an arse I am sorry. I tend to post as I think, but I do not say that I am an authority on this and I did say as much earlier on, perhaps you missed that? But I do get funny about people with a religious leaning being torn to shreds because apparently they mustn't have any intellect.

LRD - not sure about most of it - but there's a word that means "brothers and sisters" rather than "brothers" that happens a few times - it sounds similar to the words you said.
I'm quoting someone on a Religion thread, who did cite examples, but it's all a bit hazy now, i'm afraid.
a lot of the new translations take some of this into account - especially in the stuff Paul writes about.

can i re state that the hindu culture example you give of goddess worship and this somehow proving that religions aren't sexist but empowering also involves believing that women are a lower incarnation of men who are not able to reach high spiritual states or achieve moksha due to their inherent inferiority.

so i'm not sure what worshipping goddesses is supposed to prove?

no i wouldn't say they were more successful at it sircliff after all lots of the world still has pagan or tribal religions because they failed to convert it all whereas the old religions here were successfully wiped out.

i don't get why you won't reflect rather than dig yourself deeper and deeper into wrongness through pride and weird ego shit. up to you though.

Is there not an issue over the translation of one word that protestants have translated as brother (of Jesus) and Catholics have translated as close family member?

SirCliff

Am I correct in understanding the general thrust of your posts to be that you "believe," but do not subscribe to patriarchal interpretations and rewriting of religious history and indeed object to them, and are sad because religion gets slagged off for those very reasons, whereas you feel it isn't about that in the first place?

Oh right, I posted that before I read LRD's post. Thanks for that. That is not what my post said and you know it.

I was apologising for coming across as an arse.
Can we agree to start again?

There's loads of words to be fought over Milly.