Hi, I am Hully's DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

[Hullygully]

For R.S i have been asked to think, and collect, 10 key points WHY women have suffered from sexism in the past. I can think of HOW, but I am interested in WHY. I would be really interseted and grateful in any thoughts you may have! Thanks!

Although he is probably sorry he asked, at this point, to be fair.

Haven't seen ds, bof, will hopefully catch up this evening.

He did thank everyone at the point at which he left the thread, I may point out, how very dare you. He's not been around since to see subseq posts.

What do confusing Arabic terms have to do with the translation of the Bible, please?

Personally, I have come across an argument for seeing the Holy Spirit as feminine (not female - that makes no sense, since it is not embodied), and I found it to be sexist. Which you could pretty much tell from the word 'feminine'.

I think it is perfectly valid to say that the Bible was written in sexist times and bears the hallmark of those times ... I just don't quite get these particular arguments as being helpful ways to counter that.

i think religion is a red-herring for a different reason. religion is just a representation of the mores of a bunch of people - it reflects society as well as dictating-back to it.

had the Hebrews been a bunch of freedom-loving feminists their God would have reflected this.

My take: men are bigger. they can't make babies and don't have to go through the weakening aspects of pregnancy this gives them the motive and ability to control those who can have children (a child that is definitely theirs).

in earlier smaller groups family ties make feminarchy work - women are respected as the continuity and bonding elements of the tribal group. In some tribal groups, they are the ones that own land. the bigger society gets, the more turbulent inter-group relations are- the less family ties matter - your respect for your own mother does not extend to someone elses. there are traces of the earlier faiths on Abrahamic faiths, and of these societal notions (respect for breast feeding, 'honour thy father and thy mother', etc)

Edless - I agree, good post.

LRD, religion as constructed by man is different to the faith it was meant to be. Right now it is as Edless says, a representation of a group of people that was instigated by men. However my point was that God was referred, in the bible as both he and she, dependant on the translation. Arabic can be multiple meaning so the arabic word for 'he' can also be used for 'she'. When the bible was interpreted it was assumed that all the references were male, but if you go back to the original arabic that was spoken at that time (not the modern day equivalent) you could end up with a very different translation of the bible that would blow every religion out of the water.

There is no one religion today that truly represents the origins of faith. I think this earlier version of the bible is very much represented in the last paragraph of EdlessAllanPoe's post.

The more research you do on the subject you more you realise that women were once very powerful and actually the dominant sex - as Hully says, womankind was worshipped. I can no longer think of a single religion where that happens.

Um, I may need to do more research, as you so politely and un-patronizingly suggest, but at least I do know that the Bible was never written in Arabic!

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you're talking about - are you confusing Arabic and Aramaic, or the Bible and the Koran?

ALL religion has been constructed by man.

fairly impossible to discuss these things with such a fundamental difference in rationality.

LRD, my last paragraph was actually me thinking aloud and not some kind of sly dig at you. I'm not that clever

Yes the original writing is in Aramic which is why I said it wasn't modern day Arabic, I was just too lazy to look up the proper word. I should know better when arguing a point on Mumsnet shouldn't I? I shall consider my wrist slapped

Santa - now you are getting onto the matter of faith which is probably best left to a different thread. However please don't use the age-old argument that those who believe are a few cheese slices short of a toastie. I'd like to think you had a little more respect for others than that. I personally don't believe in ghosts but I'd never insult a believer.

Besides, Skaktism is a type of Hindi religion that worships goddesses - was that created by man? And many of the ancient Amazon and Greek goddess ruled their particular religions. Not all religion is constructed by man as Hully kindly pointed out earlier. Women have centred in many religions throughout the ages and many goddesses are still worshipped in Hindu ceremonies. Women held the power of religion until the west stepped in....

feminarchy perished in the sub-continent long before then though...

We cannot perceive any religion except as it is rooted in cultural and social experience - so yes, all religion reflects its construction by humans.

I am dubious about the argument about goddesses.

I am sure that women in patriarchial societies have drawn great strength from goddess worship and the veneration of women saints. But the existence of goddess worship does not prove that a society was proto-feminist. Often, we know that societies that worshipped goddesses were stunningly misogynistic.

not all believers sircliff - but those who carve out a faith by suppressing their own rationality and common sense and twisting their logic into figures of 8 do end up compromising their own mental integrity in my opinion. incidentally as someone with mental health issues maybe i could choose to find your comments as offensive as you are determined to find mine?

hinduism still believes that only men can achieve moksha because women are inferior incarnations and not capable of true spirituality btw. worshipping goddesses can have absolutely no bearing on how you treat mere mortal women.

Oh - and AFAIK the Bible wasn't written in Aramaic either. It was written in Greek and Hebrew. People spoke Aramaic, but we don't have any surviving Biblical text written in Aramaic.

I'm always happy to be corrected, though.

and utter bollocks to the west ending female ruled religions.

sorry but if you want to argue about these things it would be best to inform yourself. without playing qualifications top trumps i have a first degree in social anthropology, a HE diploma in hindu philosophy and a pgce in religious studies.

whatever you would like to pretend me to be i'm not some ignorant anti theist who doesn't have a clue what she is talking about.

you are correct lrd. obviously.

I think a good book to read for you, is a fiction book called "Crooked Pieces" by Sarah Grazebrook.
It is fiction, but it is about the Suffrage Movement, and there are lots of polictical opinion explained in there - particularly how dangerous it would be for women to get the vote, because then a man wouldn't be in charge of his own household anymore! and stuff like that.
it's a very powerful story, and I think the way it is told helps to explain why women were treated like that.

I find this argument that once, in some conveniently shadowy time about which we have little evidence, women ruled the world to be quite vulnerable to anti-feminist trains of thought. I don't think women want to be worshipped. I don't believe it's the case that women set up gods in their own image because they believed women were so much more wonderful than men.

If I believed women were really like that how could I be a feminist?

I believe that there may have been times when women were accorded proper respect and dignity, and this may have coincided with the worship of goddesses. But the argument that women once held the power really gets on my nerves - it's like saying 'well women had it once, now it's the men's turn'.

not to mention that patriarchal religions actually emerged in the middle east and were brought to the west when they were still largely goddess and nature worshippers.

Don't throw the mental health card at someone with mental health problems santa. Silly.

LRD portions of the bible were written in Hebrew and other languages, take your pick. Besides you first mentioned aramic, I just mentioned I was too lazy to look it up. I was but I have now.

I have no wish to play top trumps in education Santa, you have already presumed that I am flippant of mental health issues therefore must never have experienced it myself. I do wonder why so defensive? I think I have been polite and have stated my opinions. I have not personally meant offence, just entered into what I thought was an interesting and good-natured debate on the role of women in religion.

However I can see that you are obviously not in the mood to debate and I've no wish to have my own intellect insulted. I have far better things to do and feel I would probably waste my time in carrying on this discussion further, which is a shame.

Much of the East was covered in goddess worshipping religions such as the Aztecs, the Indigenous Americans and so on, one theory is that these religions would have carried on if it were not for the missionaries. Many of them from the UK. However I'm sure you will prove me very wrong on that too. I never said I was an expert, I just like looking into this for my own research

LRD, do you really think that I am saying that because women had it all their own way it is now mens turn? I am shocked at that, I truly am.

Have a word with Hully about goddesses, she knows more about it than I do. But that is certainly NOT what I would ever say or even suggest.

Time I left.

(yes I know America is not in the east btw)

didn't assume you hadn't had mental health problems just pointed out that your choice of language was potentially offensive. having experienced something doesn't preclude you from insensitivity and ignorance sadly.

i'm not defensive. not sure i've been rude anywhere either? you have stated your opinons however you have stated them as facts that are simply untrue (such as the bible being written in aramaic) and i reserve the right to correct inaccuracy in a debate.

the aztecs and indigenous americans were in the WEST btw. you are doing a good enough job of insulting your intelligence without us trying to tbf

so knowing that they were in the west then you would acknowledge it makes what you said utter bollocks. i'd stop digging if i were you.

The language is Aramaic.

The Bible is written in Hebrew and Greek.

You are letting down your points by your clear and obvious lack of knowledge. It's fine if you don't know things, but pretending you do and refusing to accept corrections with a modicum of grace makes you look daft. I'm really sorry if that is harsh, but it is also the truth, and TBH, I'm not feeling especially polite when you use the phrase 'the mental health card' or when you resort to personal attacks on other posters.

a lot of the patriarchal societies are in the more advanced countried - in fact, LRD mentioning the Greek of the bible - lots of stories in there in the Greek use the word for "people" and it got translated into english as "men" - that's all because of patriarchy.
(of course, men were still in charge of society, but women weren't excluded every day like they appear to be in the English translations. ie - they were counted as people, not ignored completely)