Hi, I am Hully's DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

[Hullygully]

For R.S i have been asked to think, and collect, 10 key points WHY women have suffered from sexism in the past. I can think of HOW, but I am interested in WHY. I would be really interseted and grateful in any thoughts you may have! Thanks!

Yes, definitely about maintenance of power. Pagan religions aren't patriarchal, though, and, from a very generalised, basic view, it was the Christian (ie. very patriarchal) religion that did it's best to wipe out Pagan religions, and therefore create a patriarchal society. And they could do that simply because the religion was run by men and they're usually bigger and stronger than women.

For the same reasons that any group is oppressed.

So that they can do all the rubbish work that noone really wants to do.

So that the powerful group can feel big, powerful, important and superior.

So that the oppressed group can be coerced into showing 'gratitude' at how graciously the powerful group treats them despite their inferiority.

So that certain services are on tap without having to go through the awful bore that is being nice and respectful to the people providing the service.

So that they don't have to be paid particularly well and the powerful group can accumulate wealth and yet more importance.

I'm sure there are more!

And what Cinque said - Pagan religions celebrate women's fertile power - think of the term 'Mother Earth'.

But surely the casting of women as the weaker sex came before the Bible, and the Bible was only following what was already happening in society?

I agree with ATruth (nice name by the way) that because we are physically 'weaker' and are needed by our babies (which pre contraception would have been pretty much all the time) men were the hunter gatherers and took on the more 'important' tasks and by default considered themselves superior.

Pre-Christianity, many Western religions either saw Male and Female as equal, or they venerated the fertillity of women. There are fairly good examples in Greek mythology, or at least they're the best documented.

Christianity changed that around in order to gain dominance by giving men the power. Note that, despite coming from the same teachings (Old Testament/Torah) Judaism is matrilineal (sp?)

Pure speculation, but I would also suggest that women have traditionally been busy bearing and feeding children, leaving men with time to think about concepts such as power and control...

Any use?

Hi Hully's DS!

I think the difference between how and why is pretty tricky to work out. One problem is that, although different people in different times and places have different attitudes towards women, I don't think we have much evidence of any society that was entirely un-sexist. It could be that once, women and men treated each other equally and fairly. But we just don't know - it is too far back in the past! So, when we study history, it's often hard to know why there is sexism against women - because however far back we go, we find it is already part of the culture.

Does that make sense? That's why it's hard to answer the 'why', I think.

Some people have suggested one reason might be that when women are pregnant, or breastfeeding small babies, they are very vulnerable. They need someone else around. Now, of course you could say that men are also vulnerable, because without women they couldn't have babies at all ... but of course, if a woman took advantage of a man's vulnerability by choosing not to have his babies, we wouldn't know about her, because she'd have no children and her way of thinking probably wouldn't get passed on to anyone.

If women need men around to protect them when they have babies, I think that may have been when the balance of power tipped towards men. Humans are quite odd, compared with other animals, in that many animal females and animal babies really aren't so vulnerable at this time.

Hello HullyDS

I think the 'how' part of the question refers to the ways in which women have suffered from sexsim - eg not getting jobs when in competition with men; being paid less even though they are doing to same job; basically how sexism is manifested/why women have argued for equal rights etc.

The 'why' probably relates to the underlying beliefs and values that lead to the sexism eg women are the weaker sex; are more naturally nurturing/emotional etc. For what it is worth, I think that one 'why' is that a dominant power usually asserts its authority and retains it power by making the less dominant believe that they are less worthy or capable. Think of the example of those appalling comments made by the Sky Sports commentators - they tried to maintain their position of power/popularity/expertise by presenting the greatest threat to this as incapable/inferior.

Does that make sense? Hope that helps.

It all started when men learned how to fish and to make fire. Prior to that women were in a more powerful position as they bore the children and that "production" outweighed the male production. The balance shifted with the change in structure of a family / ie monogamy whereby a man ensured he passed his property onto his 'sons' - this could only be if he ensured his wife was faithful - hence the required submission of women. Or something

Religion is just a cover for it imo, not the root cause.

Although conversely, the damage can't be undone without losing or radically changing many religions.

Maybe your headteacher is looking for different modalities of the WHY, so schobe's examples and the religious stuff.

I don't think the 'weakness' is WHY they do it. It is just part of how it can be achieved.

Let's synthesise the points so far

Women were regarded as intellectually inferior and therefore could be treated as the inferior sex.

Women are physically weaker and therefore men regarded them as needing protection.

Women give birth, a power which men were in awe of and thus needed to control/oppress.

Women are blamed for mankind's expulsion from the Garden of Eden.

As the most powerful group, men want to maintain that power.

That's five already!

Schobe - I agree, but the men in pagan religions still venerate women's power.

Friedrich Engels - Marxist 'feminist' - wrote about it in The Origin of Family Private Property and the state. I'm going to look it up.

I'm scribbling, I'm scribbling!

Mother: well that's the reason he has been given this question I think. It's very ambiguous. How, suggests the ways in which it is manifested, why suggests to me the ways in which 'society' aids and abets and allows. Could be wrong though. If I was writing the essay I would take it from that perspective. Ie why has sexism been perpetuated...politics/ religion/ etc. Have been known to go very wrong with essays in the past though".....!

Pinot [hgrin]

(Tianc, can I just say that ds is 14 and might struggle with modalities - Hully )

I did [hgrin] like it's haloween!

Go TeamDamon! Go TeamDamon!

Heck, I'm 27 and I'm struggling with 'modalities'!

Here's one way 'how' they were discriminated against Hully jnr... Until about 1945 women teachers and civil servants were required to either stay single or resign in favour of male breadwinners, ie. they had to give up their jobs if they married.

Actually, tea Damon sounds like the basis for a good argument

Because on the whole, human nature is more nature than humane. So the strong take from the weak. And for most of the time our species has been around, the only strength that mattered was muscle. And testosterone builds muscle and aggression. And a pregnant or nursing woman probably needs some help to survive. And maternity is never in doubt, whilst a male may only be confident of paternity if the female is too docile and subservient to stray.

And you do need to know Hullyson....when God made man she was joking