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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hi, I am Hully's DS. Hully said I could ask you a question!

336 replies

Hullygully · 02/12/2011 18:20

For R.S i have been asked to think, and collect, 10 key points WHY women have suffered from sexism in the past. I can think of HOW, but I am interested in WHY. I would be really interseted and grateful in any thoughts you may have! Thanks!

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RealityIsADistantMemory · 06/12/2011 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MillyR · 06/12/2011 17:23

Hully, I think the point of the virgin birth in Catholic tradition is that Mary was immaculately conceived. This meant that Jesus could also be immaculately conceived because one of his parents was a human who was immaculately conceived and one of them was God.

He couldn't have been a perfect sacrifice and atoned for the sin of humanity if he himself was carrying original sin.

And also what you said about needing to be the son of God.

If Mary then went on to have further children herself after the birth of Jesus it would then be the bizarre situation of somebody who was herself immaculately conceived carrying a baby that carried the stain of original sin from the human father. So I don't think it is much about her non-virginity after Jesus being a bad thing as their being no appropriate human for her to have sex with because all the humans apart from her were born carrying sin.

RealiTreeCoveredInTinsel · 06/12/2011 17:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LEttletownofBOFlehem · 06/12/2011 17:29

I don't really understand why it matters that Mary is too good for anyone. If that were the case, I can think of a number of couples that shouldn't be together.

MooncupGoddess · 06/12/2011 17:33

Yes, that is the Catholic belief, Milly. Of course the Immaculate Conception appears nowhere in the Bible and was invented several centuries afterwards.

For Catholics though the perpetual virginity of Mary is v. important (she is often referred to as 'ever virgin' in the liturgy). In fact some Catholics believe that Jesus was miraculously born without breaking Mary's hymen, as breaking the hymen would have meant she was technically no longer a virgin. Hmm

Of course no one gets worked up about whether Jesus was a virgin or not.

LEttletownofBOFlehem · 06/12/2011 17:35

Does the Immaculate Conception not appear in the bible then? I thought it said that she was conceived without sin?

LEttletownofBOFlehem · 06/12/2011 17:41

Ah- further reading suggests I'm wrong. But discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel?s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

I don't know why I'm reading up on this stuff- I have lapsed so far from my Catholic upbringing that it is a mere dot in the distance.

MillyR · 06/12/2011 17:48

Jesus did have a child according to the gospel of Philip. So I don't think it is true that nobody was bothered.

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 17:49

but jesus had lots of brothers and sisters, he was one of the oldest and had to look after the youunger ones. How does that square with Mary's hymen intactus?

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MillyR · 06/12/2011 17:52

Hully, due to the translation of the Greek into 'close family member' rather than 'brother/sister.' Catholics believe Jesus was an only child.

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 17:53

He wasn't though. I've seen it on the telly. It was a damn good doc, wish I could remember what it was called.

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Hullygully · 06/12/2011 17:55

Jesus? brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus? mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus? brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings.

Some Roman Catholics claim that these ?brothers? were actually Jesus? cousins. However, in each instance, the specific Greek word for ?brother? is used. While the word can refer to other relatives, its normal and literal meaning is a physical brother. There was a Greek word for ?cousin,? and it was not used. Further, if they were Jesus? cousins, why would they so often be described as being with Mary, Jesus? mother? There is nothing in the context of His mother and brothers coming to see Him that even hints that they were anyone other than His literal, blood-related, half-brothers.

A second Roman Catholic argument is that Jesus? brothers and sisters were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. An entire theory of Joseph's being significantly older than Mary, having been previously married, having multiple children, and then being widowed before marrying Mary is invented without any biblical basis. The problem with this is that the Bible does not even hint that Joseph was married or had children before he married Mary. If Joseph had at least six children before he married Mary, why are they not mentioned in Joseph and Mary?s trip to Bethlehem (Luke 2:4-7) or their trip to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-15) or their trip back to Nazareth (Matthew 2:20-23)?

There is no biblical reason to believe that these siblings are anything other than the actual children of Joseph and Mary. Those who oppose the idea that Jesus had half-brothers and half-sisters do so, not from a reading of Scripture, but from a preconceived concept of the perpetual virginity of Mary, which is itself clearly unbiblical: ?But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) until she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus? (Matthew 1:25). Jesus had half-siblings, half-brothers and half-sisters, who were the children of Joseph and Mary. That is the clear and unambiguous teaching of God?s Word.

So there we are.

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MillyR · 06/12/2011 17:56

Well yes, but tradition and the structure of myth is much more exciting and meaningful that whatever really went on, surely?

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 17:57

Prior to the revelation of The Urantia Book, little was known or understood about the purely human life of Jesus of Nazareth before his public life. - especially about his childhood and the family life that he enjoyed with Mary and Joseph There has long been speculation regarding the existence of siblings in Jesus' family, and in The Urantia Book, we learn that Jesus did indeed have younger siblings - eight of them, to be exact. They are, in birth order: James, Miriam, Joseph, Simon, Martha, Jude, Amos, and Ruth. Because of the death of Joseph, when Jesus was but a lad of 14, he naturally assumed his role as brother and father to his younger siblings, and there are many wonderful stories here regarding Jesus' parenting style.

Every source says yes.

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Hullygully · 06/12/2011 17:59

Was that to me, Milly? I like myth and its provenance and interrelatedness very much, but I like facts too.

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MillyR · 06/12/2011 17:59

Here is the response to the protestant perspective you posted, Hully:

The New Testament is explicit that Mary was a virgin at the time she conceived Jesus by the Holy Spirit. Christian traditionlater infallibly affirmed by the Churchacknowledges that she remained a virgin afterwards. The great majority of Christians acknowledges this. Only the Protestant community dissents.

But there are certain questions to be answered, such as who the "brethren" or "brothers" of Christ mentioned in Scripture are.

In English when we say "brother" we usually mean full brother--a male sibling sharing both biological parents. But the term has a broader range of meanings. It can include half-brother (male sibling sharing one biological parent), step-brother (male sibling sharing one parent by marriage), and adoptive brother (male sibling adopted into the family). It can be given figurative meanings, such as "comrade," as when military men are described as "a band of brothers."

Which applies to the brethren of Christ in Scripture?

It is unlikely that the term "brother" is being used figuratively or mystically because all Christians are Christ's brothers in that sense, making it pointless to single out certain individuals for this description. Full brother is impossible, as Protestants also acknowledge, since Jesus was not the biological child of Joseph. Half-brother is ruled out by the fact that Mary remained a virgin. It is possible they were adoptive brothers, but there does not seem to be any evidence for this in the biblical or patristic record.

More plausibly, they were step-brothers: children of Joseph who were Jesus' brothers by marriage. There is some evidence for this in the writings of early Christians. The earliest discussion of the matter that we havein a document known as the Protoevangelium of James (c. A.D. 120)states that Joseph was a widower who already had a family and thus was willing to become the guardian of a consecrated virgin. Though not inspired, the document was written within living memory of Mary, when Christ's family was still well known, as other sources attest (e.g., second century historian Hegisippus). It may contain accurate traditions regarding the family structure.

The step-brother hypothesis was the most common until St. Jerome (the turn of the fifth century), who popularized the idea that the brethren were cousins. One would not guess this from a casual reading of the New Testament, but many have tried to deduce it from statements in the New Testament.

Part of the issue turns on the meaning of the word "brother." Thus far we have been discussing the English word brother for simplicity. The Greek equivalent (adelphos) includes the same concepts in its range of meaning. But Greek also has a word for "cousin" (anepsios), which seems to have been the normal word used when referring to cousins. An advocate of the cousin hypothesis would need to explain why it wasn't used if Christ?s brethren were cousins.

The standard explanation is that the New Testament isn't ordinary Greek. Some have suggested that parts of it may be translations from Aramaic. It is unknown if or how much of the New Testament had an Aramaic original, but even if none did, Aramaic had a strong influence on it. Probably all the New Testament authors except Luke were native Aramaic-speakers, and much of the dialogue in the Gospels originally occurred in Aramaic. Sometimes the Gospels even tell us the original words (e.g., ?Talitha cumi? in Mark 5:41).

This is important because the meaning of the Aramaic word for "brother" (aha) not only includes the meanings already mentioned but also includes other close relations, including cousins.

In fact, there was no word for "cousin" in Aramaic. If one wanted to refer to the cousin relationship, one has to use a circumlocution such as ?the son of his uncle? (brona d-`ammeh). This often is too much trouble, so broader kinship terms are used that don?t mean ?cousin? in particular; e.g., ahyana ("kinsman"), qariwa ("close relation"), or nasha ("relative"). One such term is aha, which literally means ?brother? but is also frequently used in the sense of ?relative, kinsman.?

The first Christians in Palestine, not having a word for cousin, would normally have referred to whatever cousins Jesus had with such a general term and, in translating their writing or speech into Greek, it is quite likely that the Aramaic word aha would have been rendered literally with the Greek word for brother (adelphos).

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 18:03

I think the first thing is much more plausible. The Aramaic is a red herring. It was Hebrew and Greek with just a couple of passages in Aramaic.

This is the "Virginers" making stuff up, I warrant.

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MillyR · 06/12/2011 18:04

Hully, I suppose I am mainly interested in Gnosticism, so what went on in the official version of the bible is neither here nor there to me in terms of fact. I don't think it is possible to establish many facts about Jesus, because if we consider all of the texts about him that were written at about the same time, then they are going to contradict each other.

And that is the problem if you are trying to find out facts about the historical Jesus, which I assume is what you are getting at.

I am more interested in him as a mythic figure, which is something that has developed over time in church tradition.

LEttletownofBOFlehem · 06/12/2011 18:04

Fascinating.

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 18:05

It was called The Lost Tomb of Jesus (the doc).

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Hullygully · 06/12/2011 18:06

I'll have to look up Gnosticism, I have quite forgot it.

That's why I liked Karen Armstrong's biography of the bible, it was fascinating.

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EdlessAllenPoe · 06/12/2011 18:07

"I think the Holy Spirit came upon her,"

possibly this is another mistranslation, and the more feminist-friendly

"the Holy spirit went down on her" is an equally valid reading.

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 18:09

After she'd downed a bit of holy spirit herself, of course.

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MillyR · 06/12/2011 18:09

I suppose what I like about Catholicism (despite not being one) is the idea that the will of God is divinely revealed over time. I don't like the idea that he came and went and that is the end of story until the end of the world. I like the fact that Catholicism is a bit like Heat magazine; it is going to keep informing you of new stuff about God that they have 'found out' or got rid of, like limbo going.

Hullygully · 06/12/2011 18:10

Wasn't that funny when they got rid of limbo?

All those lost lil bubbas, floating about.

I loathe catholicism. I see the hideous harm it has wreaked on all the women folk about me.

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