Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

[EleanorRathbone]

NOW!!!

Here's two responses to Mary Beard 1 activist and 1 pageant winner
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15754464

"There is technique in everything from walking with grace to holding oneself in the perfect stance. " No Miss Universe from Canada is not talking about the obedience of dogs in Crufts.... no... this is women being judged in beauty pageants...

BTW I find Caitlin Moran very woman-blaming in her feminist analysis - she in a lot of ways is a status quo reinforcing man-pleaser but is quite oblivious to it. So her quote is hypocritical..
She seems to want to set herself up as some sort of feminist icon, but effortlessly slipped into encouraging women to be ruled by division - blaming other womens faked orgasms and breasts for our oppression.
We are all in this together and its not fair to put other women down for bending to the pressures of patriarchy.

I'd say Caitlin Moran was more of a problem in feminism (not an enemy, why do we have to use that framing?) than Katie Price is.

tbal - my thoughts exactly - I think a shallow, woman-blaming analysis does feminism a greater disservice than outright misogynist MRA campaigners. It confuses things, splits people, causes infighting. Divide and rule!

I think if we talk about enemies, we're adopting male terms and concepts totally inappropriate to a woman's movement tbh.

Yes I don't think 'enemies' is useful terminology...
I just think its better if antifeminism is openly antifeminism, rather than dressed as feminism, polluting and diluting from the inside.

Radio 4 Woman's hour now

THANK YOU BEA CAMPBELL!

Go Bea!

I hadn't thought of the link between MW contestants using their winnings to fund their studies and other female students doing lapdancing to fund theirs.

You know Bea Campbell did a piece on Miss World in 2007.

Mary brought in the term "enemies" to make us seem unreasonable.

Just catching up on this one - I haven't heard of MB before, but the whole piece sounded like she was a bit 'tired' in her thinking? The whole notion of 'using the money to progress a career' is pretty weak. eg, so just how many women have that option? And what impact does that choice of beauty contest/lapdancing etc have on other womens' image in society? Idon't think use of the term "enemies" was delibarately to make others seem unreasonable, but yes the 'creation' of the notion of enemies isn't especially useful. imo

Pan ... Did I talk about 'using money to progress a career'? Don't think so. I thought that was the 'beauty queen' on the BBC website.

But thank you for the 'enemies' point. If anyone thinks that most people (certainly me) can plan their rhetoric so carefully on live radio to make other people seem unreasonable... err well dream on.

Anyway the tired old lady had some reflections on POV this week about rape and the coinage. (She is keeping her head down!)

Mary you used the term enemy about miss Venezuela in the original broadcast. Surely that is scripted?

in the original broadcast yes, in the woman's hour no.. I think. Are we getting confused about which broadcast we are talking about?

I thought that Thunderwhatever was talking about the discussion with Bea

sorry Mary, I thought a point of difference you were making between 2011 and, for eg 1973 ( which I can just about remember ) was that the contestants were graduates, or studying to be so. So by implication, it was in some way 'better' than back in the day.

Rhetoric on live radio? I have been in that position a couple of times, R4 and local radio,( in really fierce debate over criminal justice issues) but I heard your piece as a single item, an opportunity to be a polemic? I do 'catch your drift' (lovely 70's phrase) but I was a bit vague in understanding why you were so 'easy' on the whole MW thing, as if the politics of it were less important anymore.

and obv. your audience was not soley or specifically the MN FS.

The discussion of the use of the word enemy starts prior to any discussion of women's hour.

ah, Mary, I referred to the single piece - where MW wasn't so much as an enemy any more.....could be wrong there. It's been known.

thanks Pan.. I think I was saying that it was HEADLINED as different (which is partly encouraging.. but I did say that I wasn't entirely convinced by this rhetoric, which is what the beauty queen got cross about! .. attacked from all sides, which shows that it hit some kind of spot)

I guess I am easy on MW because I am crosser (now) about other things... !

"Thunderwhatever"

That's rude.

Actually I was referring to your "dont just lump me with the enemy" schtick on this thread. Saying that Miss Venezuala wasn't your enemy was problematic too, because it implied that that would be the only reason to protest Miss World.

Can you explain why you can only see this in terms of anger and enemies rather than in terms of radical feminist analysis of men's objectification of women and action against the same.

Julia Long who was interviewed on YouTube didn't sound angry. It's reasonable to protest high profile sexist events.

Being crosser about other things doesn't mean you need to criticise the people who do protest about them. I am crosser about misogyny than i am about vivisection but it doesn't mean I stand by their stall telling people they are wrong. Why would I undermine a cause I wasn't opposed to?

I don't think I was criticizing exactly.. I was saying I didnt FEEL that way.. It was, as I have said before, principally a reflection on personal change with age..

Thunder... I have written quite enough on this thread about what I feel about these soubriquets, which I think that encourage a style of rhetoric that seems to me to be pretty unhelpful, and on times pretty down on other women. I think I have had said nothing in all this discussion which I would not be happy to say to anyone face to face.. I am not SURE that goes for everyone (as Elderberry Syrup was generous enough to concede). So allow me a bit of the stick in the mud attitude...