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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

OP posts:
JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 00:40

I suspect as well the Odyssey's a bit of a funny case - it's oral poetry, isn't it? (Waits to find this is no longer considered true).

BasilRathbone · 24/02/2012 08:05

Er, Mary, are you really going to pretend that you don't know that whenever women express strong or feminist views (particularly feminist views) they are called strident by people who are uncomfortable with feminist ideas?

Come on.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 08:22

On the Odyssey.. huge debate about how oral it is!

Nyac · 24/02/2012 09:05

"And for what it's worth, I've had quite a lot to say over the years on gendered adjectives.."

Then why are you using the word "stridency" to describe the reaction here, when you must be fully aware that it's a word that is used to put down feminists? Out of all the words in the dictionary, etc etc

This is like you saying you are a former rad fem (in order to give weight and context to your views) and then going on to dismiss the Miss World protest in completely anti-rad anti-feminist ways: "they chose it", "there are worse things now", "a beauty queen isn't my enemy" (implying the protestors think she's their enemy). It's one of the reasons why you're getting such a negative reaction here, because you're setting yourself up as if you must know better (an ex radical feminist) and then acting as if you don't. You might not intend stridency as a sexist term, but you can't escape the sexist ways it's used in the present. We're not living in Ancient Greece anymore.

Also you're saying you don't understand the reaction to your piece, but once again you criticised an excellent piece of feminist activism, instead of attacking the Miss World organisers - so why be surprised that a group of feminists were unhappy about that? You aimed your fire in the wrong direction. You broadcast a journalistic piece, you put it out into the public square and the hoi polloi had a reaction. It's allowed these days - it happens all the time, it's not unusual. If you're perplexed about it, maybe talk to a few other journalists who write or broadcast opinion pieces under their own names and see what sort of reactions they get to their work, I'm sure they'll report similar events - that people respond, even strongly to their work, perhaps in ways they hadn't foreseen.

You say we haven't had much of a conversation and I agree. We are in a feminist space, and you have refused to address any of the criticisms of what you said on feminist terms, but have continually justified your statements through classical references. It's exasperating.

I would say all this to your face. Please stop trying to pretend it's anonymity that's the problem. This is a political discussion, in this case the politics being feminist. Things get heated.

swallowedAfly · 24/02/2012 09:09

genuinely Confused and Shock wtaf? this is surely an alternate universe of denial and.... weirdness.

swallowedAfly · 24/02/2012 09:09

perhaps we do have to reinvent the wheel after all

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 24/02/2012 09:13

'stridency'?! Oh dear ... time to stop digging, maybe? Grin

swallowedAfly · 24/02/2012 09:14

this is creating echos of the virginia wolf stuff with me in that i'm again thinking there must have been a time when it was quite fashionable and advantageous for a woman in academia to identity with feminism.

swallowedAfly · 24/02/2012 09:15

i know! how do alarm bells not go off when you type strident as a criticism of women who are disagreeing with you?

TunipTheVegemal · 24/02/2012 12:13

I am amazed that Mary is still amazed. It all seems pretty obvious and predictable to me: lots of feminists like Mary, Mary says something that appears critical of contemporary feminism, (even if she then says that wasn't what she meant, we weren't the only ones who took it that way), feminists disagree strongly.

What puzzles me more is how we have managed to get from 'Mary Beard is marvellous' when the Pompeii program was broadcast, to a complete mutual banging-heads-against-brick-walls inability to understand each other.

(I'll send you a PM with my namechange on it, Mary, so you know who you're talking to - click on the envelope at the top of the screen.)

JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 12:15

They're fairly different subjects, aren't they tunip? Pompeii and this.

TunipTheVegemal · 24/02/2012 12:18

yes, but the Pompeii thread was about more than just Pompeii.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 13:02

Yes the Pompeii thread was about getting pummelled by AA gill for not looking pretty.
Think I feel quite pummelled enough all round now!

Thanks all for trying to put me right ! Maybe I'm just feeling a bit too fragile for more pummelling today though. ( I suspect you may not all realise quite what a punch you deliver. )
Sure I'll join you again soon.

TunipTheVegemal · 24/02/2012 13:55

I'm sorry you're feeling fragile, hope everything is ok.
Do come back and discuss something else some time.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 16:13

well the principal reason for fragility is a big paper on weds, as yet unwritten!

JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 16:22

Best of luck with the paper.

There is a thread at the moment about women's appearances I wanted to mention - I'm sure most people have seen it, but it seems to me a really good place to carry on lurking and learning, or posting, about similar issues that were coming up in the original broadcast.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1413280-Worrying-trend-or-am-I-over-thinking-it

TunipTheVegemal · 24/02/2012 16:30

Good luck!

marybeard · 24/02/2012 16:38

Thanks all!

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