Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

[EleanorRathbone]

NOW!!!

I am not seeing the 'anger and enemies' as an either/or re radical feminism. RF isn't the sole repository of these things.

Yes I found the line about Miss Venezuela being the enemy very problematic too.
I think it all came over a bit more clearly in the Woman's Hour discussion. I was particularly pleased by the bit where you said you were glad that people were still angry. That was what I was waiting for in the Point of View and didn't get (and instead there was the line about how it was worth protesting in 1970.... as if it wasn't in 2011).
Even if it is just about why you personally are no longer angry, though, I think there is much further to go in exploring it. There are so many possible reasons why someone might get less angry about something, ranging from complacency once you're not affected by it yourself any more, through things getting worse so something which once stood out looks less important in comparison (even though it is just as wrong as it always was), to just getting tired of fighting and giving up, as well as the intellectual reasons you cited. It's tempting to try to find intellectual justification for one's emotional reaction to things.

Pan .. absolutely right.

You mean you feel the fact that people are using pseudonyms makes you ruder Mary? That's a shame. Referring to someone as "whatever" is rude after all.

This was a criticism of the protestors:

"So I'm not really sure that the Miss World competition - for all its slightly old-fashioned tackiness - is where we should be protesting."

Although I'm sure what you meant to say was "I'm not angry about sexism any more but thank goodness there are still some women around who want to protest sexist objectification".

Yes that's true ES.

Miss World looks a hell of lot less malignant than lap dancing clubs and woman trafficking on the scale it's happening now.

Of course I'm angrier about lap dancing clubs than MW. But hey, I'm a woman, I can multi task, I can be angry about lots of things at the same time.

I don't feel angry about Miss World. That doesn't mean it's not sexist or doesn't deserve protesting. It does.

Feelings aren't always the best guide to political action. It requires analysis too.

Mary if it was primarily about ageing, why obscure it with a reference to the much more titillating miss world which is now all that is discussed about the piece?

thunder re Mary - "Although I'm sure what you meant to say was "I'm not angry about sexism any more but thank goodness there are still some women around who want to protest sexist objectification".

that is really unfair and not in the spirit of FS - it just reads as a personal dig, and nothing more.

Thanks all.. I hope that I have not been rude to anyone.. at least I think I would say any of what I have said to any one of you if we were to meet. (and as I said ES was generous enough to concede that was not true of some of the earlier comments).

Crumbs... where I come from "I'm not really sure that ...' isnt much of a criticism.. it a gentle demur aint it??

And do remember that an under 10 minute radio personal view does not encompass the presenters full view of the subject! I'm very pleased that there are still all kinds of angry people.. politics depends on people being angry about different things. My point is/was that I dont feel viscerally angry about Miss World any more.. and the point of my piece was to reflect on that ...

and none of you have yet seen what I have raised about rape and the euro...

36-24-36. Standard size? So that bit isn't there but of course the swimsuit bit is. Apparently.

Well if you want to start a new thread about rape and/ or the Euro MB, I'm sure we'd be happy to discuss it...

Tbh I thought thunderwhatever was rude.

I thought the stuff about make up in the Woman's Hour broadcast was interesting too but again I rather felt like you were casting Other Feminists, Like The Ones Who Protest Miss World as being much less subtle about these things than they actually are.
Bea Campbell put it very well, I thought.

I think my generation of feminists have thought quite hard about all the appearance stuff because we've had to arrive at our own syntheses of the Second Wave view that this stuff matters and the 'post-feminist' painting of high heels and make up as empowering. In fact of course women get a variety of things out of beauty practices but that doesn't stop them having real and often harmful consequences.
I'm also not sure make up or burqa wearing is the same as Miss World. It's related of course, but Miss World as a ritual that involves women having their appearance judged (for patriarchy compliance....) is quite different from women having fun expressing themselves creatively with make up. (The latter could still exist in the feminist utopia, and men would play too; Miss World would have to be unrecognisable....)

I love the FS. The rudeness/ aggression that it suffers from, from time to time, is an obstacle.

I am going to bed.. but I do think that if you want to talk about aging on the radio you have to go into into with an example of change that gets people interested. Otherwise they SWITCH OFF... you really have to engage people with an issue and a development that touches a chord.. else you are likely to be embarking on a broadcast that will be listened to only by others in the same boat.

To judge from the emails and letters I have had that worked.. it's not about titillation; its classic Ciceronian rhetoric (as ES will confirm).

If you're sure of your support and the interest you generated elsewhere Mary, then why are you arguing it out here as a matter of interest.

But is anyone talking about ageing? I get the principle of luring the audience in but the likely perspective on miss world is far removed from the ageing issue. And it depends who you want listen. I'm sure lots of women would be interested in something that engages with their experience that isn't often talked about. Miss world discussion appeals to the people who don't lack voice in the first place thus marginalising the hidden voice of ageing women again.

PS .ES.. I made exactly the same point about makeup in the original broadcast...and about as briefly...

Pan.. I never said that 36 24 36 was standard size (I have no idea what standard size is) .. I was only reflecting that this year's Miss World had none of that.. which is what I remember as one of the most objectifying practices from the past (along with the 'turn around' to show the potehr side of the body).

I think I could probably do without a thread on the euro (if this is what a thread means, cripes??).. but I thought you people might be interested in the vaunted imagery of rape not only on the Greek euro, but also on the UK residence permit!

thunder.. I thought I WAS arguing it out here!!

ES has forgotten most of what she ever knew about Cicero, unfortunately.

And if you want to protest objectification you have to stage your demo at an event that touches a chord, otherwise you will just find yourself noticed by other feminists. Miss World was a damn good one and it worked. Well done London Feminist Network and Object!

And thank you for discussing this with us Mary, good night

Yes I said you were. If I understand you correctly you are saying that your broadcast was received the way you planned, because of the letters and emails you received.

So if you're confident in that, then why does it matter if a few feminists on Mumsnet thought you were acting in an anti-feminist manner by undermining an action taken by other feminists?