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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

OP posts:
marybeard · 22/02/2012 21:12

@nyac/thunderboltsandlightning. Sorry, I don't think I was very clear...what I meant was that when I blogged about this thread, you put a comment on my blog ... I didnt agree with it, but it was a really cracking statement of your position. When I publish the blog in print form, it would be great to have it in the book (no identification required) ... because it IS a strong statement of your view (which some other commenters agreed with, some didnt).

There isnt much point publishing a blog if one only includes comments that are in support, It rather misses the point, I think.

So I hope you might say yes. As I said, I could give you a lot more details by email

NoNameForThesePosts · 22/02/2012 22:05

I have no agenda here, but I saw this and just wanted to say, in case it's not clear, that I'm pretty sure Prof Beard is contacting all the posters who commented on her blog, whose views she'd like to publish. I got an email about three posts of mine about subjects that weren't at all contentious from a feminist point of view - in cast that helps explain.

marybeard · 23/02/2012 08:15

Thanks NoNameForThesePosts.
It's a very varied book this new "blog book", and I am including a range of comments that add to the discussion (and certainly not all that agree with me!).
The copyright issue here is murky. Some people claim that as comments have already been in the non copyright area of web no rules apply. But I am not prepared to publish in print form something that (however neatly put) someone might have typed out late night in fury and not want to see in old fashioned print, whether pseudonymously or not. Mary

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 23/02/2012 09:30

the non copyright area of web

Confused

As far as I'm aware, people automatically own copyright of anything they put out there, wherever it is, unless they have signed it over to somebody else - e.g. MN owns copyright of anything we post here because we all ticked an 'I agree' box (probably without reading) when we signed up.

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 23/02/2012 09:31

I'm not having a pop, by the way, you're obviously handling this responsibly.

marybeard · 23/02/2012 09:39

Asking around among the vaguely knowledgable, you get rather different answers! But I am not prepared to take anyone's words without asking... and that's not just a matter of caution.. it's about .. well politeness.

SardineQueen · 23/02/2012 09:45

at outing

nice to see you Smile

vezzie · 23/02/2012 20:38

Hello Mary,
You don't know me but I have been reading you for years.

Leaving aside your position on protesting Miss World I was disappointed by the discussion here.

I'm really disappointed that:

You repeatedly explained what metonymy means, as if the other posters not knowing was the problem. That was not the problem. The problem was that you picked Miss V to stand for the patriarchal institution of Miss World, which is like using Bambi in a discussion about hunt-sabbing to stand for hunting and saying, "Bambi is not the enemy". (I know others have explained this perfectly well already)

Your focus on the pseudonymity of this forum as some kind of problem. It is an unremarkable convention here (as on many internet forums). You can do the same if you want; if you choose not to, it is like going to a barbecue in a ballgown and spending the whole afternoon complaining that everyone else is under-dressed. Going on and on about how unsettling you found it, felt like a distraction technique, as if you were implying that the posters here are somehow being underhand in disagreeing with you. That felt like an unfair rhetorical device. (By the way I am sure that many of the posters on here are in a sense using a real name, as am I: in the sense that I am known to many mumsnetters in real life to be the person who posts as vezzie, although it is not on my passport. Not that it matters, as people have consistent and sincere identities on here anyway, whether or not they are known to map to their passport identities)

Talking about your newer piece about the euro, as if you were trying to distract a toddler by waving a fresh toy.

To be perfectly fair, you didn't have to come on here at all and I suppose by doing so, (and by what I knew of you already), you raised my expectations of you such that these things were disappointing.

I suppose what I find disappointing is that these things felt like deliberate dodges and obfuscations - talking about things that were not the things your interlocutors were challenging you on, and pretending they were the same things, and pretending (?) not to see the difference - were you? I don't know. Anyway it is a familiar technique, people cutting through you by "calling spades spades" when they are shovels (either deliberately, or sincerely not getting the difference), and it's disappointing.

I suppose you can't have been doing it deliberately because you didn't have to come here. But something tells me you weren't really listening, and that is sad, because it reminds me of how dismissive the broadsheet press are when they report our webchats with senior politicians and assume that the tough questions have been planted - by men? by women who aren't mothers? - I don't know, but everyone seems to think mothers don't really think. Of course they do, you of all people know that, so...?

Sorry to come to this with a diatribe so late, but I just wanted to explain how I felt, and I mean it in the nicest possible way

marybeard · 23/02/2012 21:15

Err Vezzie, hello... thank you were being so...??.. frank.
It all seems a bit of a long time ago now.. I was (and remain) a bit amazed at the stridency of the reactions to a series of 10 minute radio talks.. which were trying to get some points I felt seriously about across to a wider audience, but couldnt possibly do more than scratch the surface. On the euro, not quite sure I follow.. but I wanted to try to remind people that some of these designs we take for granted have a history and MEAN something. The BBC didnt specify at all what I should talk about (they certainly didnt hire me to talk about Miss World), but I knew that they hoped I would reflect a bit on the classical world.. partly what I was doing in the Euro piece.

Anyway the only reason I popped up again right now was to ask Thunderboltsandlightning if I could reprint one of her comments on my blog in a book .. as it's the only way I have to get in touch with her...

JerichoStarQuilt · 23/02/2012 21:48

I'm not convinced one can be strident in a written medium.

vezzie · 23/02/2012 21:52

you're welcome. we all are here ;)

"stridency" - you can't hear the posters' voices, how do you know their timbre?
(yes I know it is a figure of speech - don't worry - but, ouch)

sorry, I realise that was a terrible long ramble long after the fact and I don't expect you to respond any further - once again, thank for coming on to join in the conversation yourself, I do admire it, and good night

vezzie · 23/02/2012 21:52

x-post Jericho

vezzie · 23/02/2012 21:55

ps mary, if you find one of thunderbolt's posts, to the far right on the line where her name is, there is a link: "message poster". you can click this to send her a private message which she will be alerted to (without having to go on this thread to see it)

AyeRobot · 23/02/2012 22:44

Am a bit puzzled about you using the word "stridency" to describe those engaged in debate and discussion, Mary.

It's more than a little odd. Of all the words...

adelpha · 23/02/2012 22:48

She'll be accusing us of 'hectoring' next!

Nyac · 23/02/2012 23:27

You haven't really listened to any of the criticisms here Mary, if you're calling the reaction to your broadcast "strident". Which, everybody here is being too polite to point out, is a sexist way of describing women having strong opinions. Sheesh. Strident feminists is what they called us in the sixties. Things ought to have moved on.

I'd prefer you not to quote me as I don't think you've understood the criticisms we made, why they happened or why they were valid. Reducing what happened here down to a question of pseudonymity/anonymity on the internet seems to be missing the point somewhat.

I suppose this post I'm making is what you'd see as another example of supposed internet rudeness. It might be less about the internet though and more about the fact I'm Scottish and we do tend towards the blunt.

marybeard · 23/02/2012 23:43

crumbs... I think it is possible to be strident on screen, both women and men, thinking of the Latin etymology I guess -- and I think that is quite different from hectoring which I have never remotely suggested. And for what it's worth, I've had quite a lot to say over the years on gendered adjectives..

And I do think it is possible to disagree while still understanding.. the fact that someone disagrees doesn't necessarily mean they don't understand (I think actually we all pretty well understand each other, we disagree..which is actually more healthy..no?)

JerichoStarQuilt · 23/02/2012 23:52

Oh, I must have the wrong etymology ... I thought it referred to a quality of sound.

It's effectively an ad feminam, since you are attacking not what was said but the manner in which it was said, which some people think is a bit off.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 00:02

I was thinking of "this is rubbish", "bollocks" etc.. some of which, to be fair, were apologised for further down the thread. (dont think the Latin, strido, is easily gendered...). No big deal, but I think there IS something important about the manner. As I think I said back up this thread months ago, I dont really feel comfortable saying things on the web that (in a stye) that one wouldn't say to someone's face...but probably it's now water under the bridge,

AyeRobot · 24/02/2012 00:03

Hehehehe. Priceless. Loving the Latin etymology touch.

If you're a go-to Voice on feminism (hence the questions about MW) and you have had a lot to say about gendered adjectives, then you know the connotations of the word.

Surely?

Was that too shrill?

JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 00:06

It's obviously too late for me, I'm completely lost now.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 00:18

well it DOES have a Latin root.. and that IS my day job...But as I say, its no big deal.
I really doubt that I am a go-to voice on feminism, you'll be glad to hear. But aspects of gendered language, yes ('ambitious' as pejorative for women etc etc.. but you know all this)

JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 00:25

Mary, I think possibly we're making a simpler point than you realize, it wasn't intended to be subtle or profound.

'Strident', to me (and I'm not equipped to know much at all about etymology as that is not my day job), refers to sound. In a written medium, we can't actually hear whether or not another person is being 'strident' or 'shrill' or any of the other words that are so often used as a sneaky way of perpetuating the old woman=emotional=irrational chain of thought.

I doubt it's deliberate, but the choice of word did strike me (and obviously also others) quite forcefully and it did seem strange in the context. That's all it is, for me anyway.

marybeard · 24/02/2012 00:34

well it is a bit of transferred epithet (as 'bombastic' would also be).. but it was certainly not actively gendered (I think I was thinking of the 'intensity' as when Odysseus digs into the Cyclops in Odyssey 9!.. it's wonderful 'noise in writing', albeit in greek...)...I suppose underlying what I'm saying is that I didnt feel we were having much of a conversation.. but then i'm an old toughie, so...

JerichoStarQuilt · 24/02/2012 00:38

Fair enough - it is worth noting, then, that unfortunately it's a very commonly used term on the net to refer to feminists - it's pretty much an MRA trope. Sad