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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

OP posts:
DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 00:38

Well, when you stop patronising us, and acting like you hold the authority in this place, maybe I'll engage properly.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:39

prolesworth.. thank you (if I dont get to bed damn soon I will be in shit)..true the disequilbrium goes both ways. And I take what you say about the 'public figure ' bit.. but i dont FEEL one..and hope I never will

I would really like to know what you make of my next piece, because it is quite different but has resonances with this

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-15790507

you have to read down to the middle.. but please do...

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:40

dontcall me..

example please

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 00:42

Sorry Mary. That was in response to Pan.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 00:43

MB, I'm really disappointed that you haven't answered any of my questions. I'd have been very interested to hear it from someone who has been through the second wave. I'm sure the issues surrounding MW were different then as you didn't have the whole in-your-face multi million dollar beauty industry shoving beauty products down women's throats and all that implies for women's self-image. Or maybe you did.

The reason that we use nicknames (as does everyone on the internet) is simply that posting as a feminist can bring a lot of vitriol. We're lovely really, just a bit Confused as to what you meant.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:44

oh.. sorry, all a bit confusing. I didnt think I had been patronising (awkward yes, patronising no!) m

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 00:46

"if I dont get to bed damn soon I will be in shit"

ha ha, welcome to the late-night-Mumsnet-one-last-post syndrome!

Prolesworth · 19/11/2011 00:47
Grin
LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 00:49

Gosh, this thread has got busy.

I'm afraid I'm another one who feels uncomfortable with the idea of an 'enemy' here. The way metonomy works is to use a part to represent the whole - but is that 'whole' all women who take part in these competitions? Or the competition itself? Or the patriarchy? It's not very clear. And as as been said, using a woman to symbolize what you're against is rather troubling rhetoric. It's quite an well-established tool of misogynistic literature and speech, so there isn't much excuse for it.

And yes, I did think it was also a little patronizing to spell out what metonomy is, but I doubt that this was intentional - it's really, really hard responding to people en masse when you're on your own. And I know I slip into my most familiar style of communication when I'm stressed, so I'm sure others do it too.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:51

messy

I havent answered because I dont think it was structurally any different then (though the modalities of objectification were different). I guess that why I said the battle were won is that some things have changed in the firmament of 'what can be thought'.. sure, people will now reject the linkage between the beauty industry and discrimination against women,, they will post on websites to say that they dont agree... in the 1970s they didnt even know what the hell you were going on about. To me it seems a strange advance to have guys say.. I dont buy the connection betweem Miss world and male power.. 40 years ago they didnt even know what you were going on about..

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 00:55

I think there are still many people who would say they don't know what you're going on about. I'd submit it might simply be you know fewer of those people now?

I could be wrong here.

I take your point about Overton Window shifting, but it's not an end in itself, is it?

marybeard · 19/11/2011 00:55

lrdthe feminist..

that is exactly my problem...! I thought i was accused of being patronising.. and then assured it wasnt me.. but every which way.. Miss V was surely part for whole (in the rhetorical repertoire).. I am close to being lost...

but I really dont think that anyone thought that was literally true , did they..(ok yes )

Pan · 19/11/2011 01:02

Patronise and hold authority here, Dont? Me??Grin That is really the best.

fwiw, I did see the FS as an enormous source of encouragement for me. But that has drained away a lot recently. And tonight's posts typifies why. But like any other forum, it's what posters make of it.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 01:05

Hi Mary.

Since you want to know 'real people', you don't know me at all, but I used to comment on your blog as Lucy a few years ago.

I think there's some miscommunication here. You needn't assure me it's metonomy. I can see that. My problem (which I think is everyone else's too), is that classifying a figure of speech is really beside the point - what 'whole' does this woman represent to you, that is 'the enemy'? And is it necessary to make a woman the figure that sums up your antipathy? Sure, we might say it's 'just' symbolism or 'just' rhetoric, but .... is it ever 'just' rhetoric?

To put it another way, if we constantly use women to symbolize negative things, there's a drip-drip effect on society. I think we can really do without this.

It could also be argued that to make this woman into a figure in your rhetorical engagement with 'the enemy', you're reducing her to a cipher, which could also make me a bit uneasy. But that may be overthinking things.

I can understand it may have been a off-the-cuff remark, but that doesn't mean the implications aren't important to some of us who listen.

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 01:06

So what you're saying is that 70s feminism gave us the actual language to define the problem, (and that in itself was a battle won) and to argue against it but that the argument hasn't been won yet? Yes I can definitely see that. If anything I'd say today it's hard because the backlash has become more articulate in its defense of objectification of women.

Also (sorry I know you have to go to bed!) but would you say that 70s feminists were true to the dictatorial stereotype in that they disapproved of other women who were, for example SAHMs (stay at home mums)? I know I'm asking you to generalize, but ....

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 01:09

"but I really dont think that anyone thought that was literally true , did they..(ok yes )"

you have to remember this is one of the things that feminists are always accused of - looking down on women that don't fit the feminist mold.. that's why we're being a bit pedantic about it...

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 01:10

That's true messy, about the backlash becoming more articulate. Sad

More insidious, too, IMO.

marybeard · 19/11/2011 01:11

I am so tired that I am not going to answer these now,, simply because I have been up (like most of you i guess) since 6 and I will say something ill-advised to complicated questions and then I will be in the real shit.. I will get back to you

LRDtheFeministDragon · 19/11/2011 01:12

Night Mary.

And night anyone else who's still up ... I'm off too!

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 01:14

Yes, Pan. Patronise and attempt to hold authority. You wade in, tell us that we're aggressive etc, make it clear which posters you have a problem with. You mansplain topics to us, and tell us off for being "aggressive" or whatever.

Perhaps that's worth reflecting on?

messyisthenewtidy · 19/11/2011 01:15

Ok me too I'm off, ...... I'm moving AWAY from the keyboard.... deep breaths.....

DontCallMeFrothyDragon · 19/11/2011 01:18

Night, LRD. :) Sleep well.

Night Mary, and any one else heading to bed.

Pan · 19/11/2011 01:26

no, it isn't worth reflecting on, don't. tbh. It seems when I 'challenge' a poster's opinion (lately) it gets labelled as being 'aggressive'. When it's merely factual. But it isn't worth arguing over now.
The fights for womens rights goes way beyond ( and pre-dated by centuries) the increasingly rarified atmosphere of the FS. That has changed recently. A lot. Not really sure why. But I will unhappily step away from it, as it gets too frustrating to be a poster where you don't 'fit in' any longer. and that's it really.

Prolesworth · 19/11/2011 01:33

G'night Mary

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 19/11/2011 07:36

As others have said, given how feminists are frequently accused of seeing other women as the enemy, it was a very unfortunate metonym. Julia Long picked up on it as did Bea Campbell - it's not just us - I think your use of rhetoric has caused massive confusion over what your message actually was. I very much hope your comment about MV being the enemy doesn't become one of those things that is forever quoted out of context ... 'see, those feminists do see other women as the enemy, Mary Beard said ...'