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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mary Beard on Radio 4 now with Point of View about Miss World 2011

343 replies

EleanorRathbone · 11/11/2011 20:51

NOW!!!

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LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/11/2011 18:04

Depends which 'this' you mean. If it's the piece as a whole, I agree. I don't think there's any way to spin the problem with dismissing Miss World protests, especially the way it was phrased.

But if by 'this' you mean what Kri and ButterflyEffect have ended up talking about, I think it is important to talk about aging. Maybe it needs another thread, as it is an interesting topic.

thunderboltsandlightning · 23/11/2011 18:06

BTW I thought you meant "moving on" as in the terms of accepting the positives, which of course you should do if you think it might be the right time for you to do that. So I was supporting you.

Mind you I'm struggling to see what positives you saw in this broadcast, LRD. So didn't agree it was time for me to do the same.

thunderboltsandlightning · 23/11/2011 18:07

x-post

Generally I prefer to stick to the topic of threads if possible. Especially if the original issues remain unresolved.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/11/2011 18:11

Ahhh, sorry, I didn't get that! I meant the positives in this discussion, ie., moving on from what Mary said to what came out of people responding to her.

I do see why you might not want to 'move on' in that sense (and I am a bit sad that I didn't get to this thread in time to get a response from Mary to what I said, especially since I think it was valid criticism). So I'm certainly not saying 'ooh, let's all forget it and say never mind', not at all.

TBH I thought the point about intergenerational feminism and the different ways society discriminates against older women was more thought provoking than the broadcast itself, but that may just be personal taste.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/11/2011 18:12

Damn, I cross-posted with you saying cross-post. You're right, I shouldn't go off topic.

AlwaysWild · 23/11/2011 21:51

The stuff about older women was an interesting part. I think lots of people have said that, certainly I have. Sadly it got attached to the far more salacious and media friendly Miss World peg, hence why we're discussing Miss World. The wisdom of this connection has also been discussed.

Another thread on the aging stuff would be interesting.

But I can't move on to that on this thread as there is still so much that hasn't will never I guess be answered.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 23/11/2011 22:22

I know why we're discussing Miss World. I'm sorry if suggesting moving on came across as presumptuous - I re-read and I can see why it did. It wasn't my intention.

I see what you're saying about needing some answers. I hope we'll get them too.

KRITIQ · 24/11/2011 18:08

LRD, I think I read your "move on" suggestion in a different way, as more of a, "okay there are things that some people are never going to agree on here but are there things they DO agree on that we can focus on and take forward."

I didn't actually see it as trying to shut down discussion, but maybe more an acknowledgement that in some debates, you get to the point where you realise that A will never get B to agree to X and B will never get A to agree to Y, but if both are singing from the same song sheet on Z, is it possible to work together on Z?

But, maybe Z needs its own thread as this one is a bit long and roundabouty! :)

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/11/2011 18:16

Mary's posted about this on her Times Online blog:

"But a frightening lot of the comments that appear on the Have Your Say BBC website seem to be driven by different versions of bile. Same is true for the Guardian Comment, Mumsnet .. or really any big commenting site."

timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2011/11/online-etiquette.html

EleanorRathbone · 24/11/2011 18:56

Nice to have our reasoned discussion described as bile.

Hmm
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LRDtheFeministDragon · 24/11/2011 22:26

Kri - that's more or less what I was meaning, could we move on and talk about the age issues as they seemed interesting. But frankly now I don't want to in this context, after seeing the link above.

Frankly I'm wondering why we bothered given that response.

KRITIQ · 24/11/2011 22:53

Well, guess we never know how these things will unfold! Ah well . . .

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LeninGrad · 27/11/2011 20:44

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EleanorRathbone · 27/11/2011 21:37

Yes I don't really know how you can get round that Lenin, when it just so happens that on one thread, most people take one position and one person takes another. I know it feels like being besieged when it happens to you, the only thing people can do about it is to stay courteous to each other, which I think by and large happened on this thread. It was a bit rude about MB at the beginning, but not when she came on to discuss.

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LeninGrad · 28/11/2011 12:11

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElderberrySyrup · 28/11/2011 12:52

It was always going to be difficult to turn it round after the way it began Blush

I didn't realise till Thunderbolts linked it on Mary's blog, but Mary had posted again on the 'Mary Beard is marvellous' thread from when her Pompeii programme was on:
'marybeard Fri 11-Nov-11 20:24:22
This is such a long time ago... and I was so pleased that you all gave me the extra confidence. Thank you. I have got a little bit of a dig back at AA Gill (in a self ironic kind of way). Hope you half approve.. a bit worried about what you might think about the Miss World line.. but lets see!'

I wouldn't have expected this - even when someone has been on MN in the past, the more they hang out with Jamie Oliver and what have you, the less it crosses your mind they might actually care what you think, let alone be waiting for a response.

But given that they do, you can't expect them to have an infinite capacity to rise above, any more than anyone else has.

LeninGrad · 28/11/2011 12:58

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ElderberrySyrup · 28/11/2011 13:45

You're very sensible Lenin. And calm!

LeninGrad · 28/11/2011 14:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

marybeard · 21/02/2012 23:01

thunderboltsandlightning
Hi.. I am just publishing a new volume of blog, plus some comments and I very much wanted to publish your justification of using a pseudonym.. the point of the book is to highlight disagreements as well as agreement! My email is :

mb127 at cam.ac.uk

if you would get in touch, I would explain more. Mary

Nyac · 21/02/2012 23:25

Everybody on this thread is using a pseudonym except you marybeard. Not sure why I'd be getting singled out in particular.

There's no need to justify using a pseudonym, it's common practice here.

But if you want to know why I in particular prefer to remain anonymous on the internet, it's because I'm a radical feminist and we are subject to serious stalking by mens rights activists and other assorted woman-haters. People who have tracked down radical feminists I know in real life, harassed them at work, harassed them through their neighbours and forced them into hiding. They also have issued rape and death threats. There can dangers in holding radical feminist views in our male supremacist society, dangers which I prefer not to have to deal with in my real life and more dangerous than people being a bit rude about you on the internet.

Nyac · 21/02/2012 23:40

Oops I just outed myself there. Oh well.

I'll try and be polite. Thanks for the offer Mary, but no thank you.

I wish now I'd written into Radio 4 Feedback under my own name - and I would have said the same things. Julia Long, who is not pseudonymous also said the same things, except much more eloquently and better argued than me. I think anonymity is a bit of a red herring on this particular thread.

swallowedAfly · 22/02/2012 09:51

just a thought but a 'famous' name is in itself a persona isn't it? it's the persona under which you make your public appearances and opinions etc and presumably has some distinction from your private life much as using a pseudonym does for a person writing on the internet. as a non famous (in the wider sense of audience) name it may have less accountability and less identifying of the private life attached to it but it is not so different from the public persona of a famous person who is also known only for the face they put out there rather than their private intimate self.

just a thought.

i have just read and caught up on this whole thread having missed it the first time round. what strikes me is that it isn't really that different ages of feminist have different 'battles' or problems to tackle but that they are experiencing different faces of the same problem - or are fighting on different fronts of the same war to stick with the combat metaphor.

the objectification and non human being status of women will be manifested throughout our lifetimes in different ways - the princess culture of childhood will become the porn star sex object pressure of youth and the invisibility and worthlessness of age when our ability to conform to these models wears out. it's the problem of women being valued primarily for their appearance, being socialised to see their appearance as key to their self worth and being discouraged from finding their worth in wider more meaningful ways.

to say MW doesn't matter but the treatment of older women as worthless does is like saying.... (struggles for a decent analogy)... acorns are unconnected to oak trees or how you mix the ingredients doesn't effect the cake (clearly fails on the analogy front).

without the objectification of girls and women we wouldn't end up with the consequences we see upon the status of women who no longer fit the ideal object mould.

swallowedAfly · 22/02/2012 09:55

whatever end of the age spectrum we're at we're facing the same patriarchal value that female humans only have worth as sexual objects and must be judged by standards of beauty and male sexuality - the child is in training for it, the young adult is being judged on it and having her value decided upon it and the older woman is of no value as that 'value' has supposedly passed and won't be coming back again.

it's all the same thing surely?