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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What Does Being a Feminist in 2011 Mean To You?

145 replies

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 12:21

I know this has been done before but I think it's nice to do it again.

I'd like one or two comments on what feminism means to you, or what you feel is a particularly important feminist issue to you right now, in 2011. I'll get the ball rolling because if memory serves, this was the conclusion of the last discussion like this:

  • Do you believe men and women deserve to be treated equally?
  • Do you think think this is happening yet?

If the answers are 'yes' and 'no!'', then collect your feminism stamp on the way in, and let's hear you ....

OP posts:
ComradeJing · 09/11/2011 13:51

Feminism isn't a bad -ism! It isn't racism or sexism or the like. Being a feminist doesn't mean I hate men or think women are better or say anything about my sexuality. It simply means that I think men and women deserve to be treated equally and this isn't happening now.

Good thread :)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 13:59

Nice post. Smile

I think that is a good one to remember, and it reminds me of something else:

People sometimes say, 'why don't you talk about "equalism" instead of feminism - wouldn't that be better because feminism suggests you only care about women'. But feminism covers all that, and it is a positive message, not a negative one.

OP posts:
ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/11/2011 14:06
LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 14:08

Oi! No stamp without sharing. Play nice, Elephants. Wink

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 09/11/2011 14:12

Cool topic!

In response to your questions:

  • Do you believe men and women deserve to be treated equally? YES, but . . .
  • Do you think think this is happening yet? NO

So, I'm not sure if I get the the stamp or not!

I would answer a more emphatic YES to the first question if it were phrased, "Do you believe men and women deserve to be considered of equal value as humans?"

My reason for that is that you won't necessarily get equality of opportunity or outcomes by treating men and women the same, or in fact any two people exactly the same. For example, one could set a 5' 8" height restriction for joining the police, equally applied to men and women. But, because women tend on average to be shorter than men, they would be indirectly discriminated against by being treated the same. Unless there was evidence that such a height restriction were actually required, it shouldn't be there.

Also, because of the answer "no" to the second question, it may mean that steps need to be taken to promote equality of outcomes, which would not be applied equally to men and women. That's because the playing field isn't level.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/11/2011 14:13

Errrrm sorry Dragon :(

Ok, important feminist issues for me are:

  • Equal suffrage for women around the world, STILL not achieved
  • Maternal safety and mortality, mainly STILL happening in this day and age due to a lack of people giving a single toss about it :(
  • Domestic abuse and killing of women by current or former partners
  • Access to contraception for all women, as well as other forms of autonomy over our bodies (e.g. NO rape, NO forced abortions, access to abortions for those who need them, NO-ONE being forced to have children when they don't want or can't look after them).
mumwithdice · 09/11/2011 14:14

I don't think men and women are treated equally, no. Equalism is all well and good, but sometimes I worry that people confuse equal with the same. I think in regards to feminism, we should be aiming for men and women to be treated fairly.

mumwithdice · 09/11/2011 14:15

Or what KRITIQ said above.

ComradeJing · 09/11/2011 14:17

Yes LRD. Feminism does benefit men/society. For example an important part of feminism IMO is joint parenting instead of a women doing all the childcare. This allows men to have better and closer relationships with their children. Or equal work opportunities mean that the best person is promoted for a job which makes the business more profitable.

I'm going to bed now but looking forward to reading in the morning!

ComradeJing · 09/11/2011 14:19

Oh YY to Kritiq too!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 14:29

Yes, I agree, it should be:

"Do you believe men and women deserve to be considered of equal value as humans?"

I did struggle working out how to phrase that bit!

I would stress, though, that though different people are different, gender should not IMO be the most important difference between people. We should never excuse different outcomes by saying 'oh, but she is a girl' or 'oh, but he's a man'.

OP posts:
KRITIQ · 09/11/2011 14:35

Heck, my phrasing is pretty wonky as well but hopefully it makes a bit of sense! :)

Prolesworth · 09/11/2011 14:47

For me it's not about equality; it's about liberation from oppression. I find that a much simpler way of understanding feminism that doesn't raise all these issues around what 'equality' means.

KRITIQ · 09/11/2011 14:55

Good point. Gender equality is the goal, the outcome. But, liberation from oppression is what has to happen to achieve that.

sunshineandbooks · 09/11/2011 15:02

Can I have a stamp please? Grin

My most important feminist issue is domestic abuse. To my mind it seems to be absolutely bloody everywhere. Sometimes (in RL as well, though mainly on here) I wonder if my perspective is skewed because I see controlling and/or abusive behaviour everywhere. But that's because male privilege is still shoring it up. Sad truth is that I'm not chasing shadows - there are a LOT of controlling and/or abusive men out there (and I say that as someone who LIKES men and DOESN'T believe they are all rapists/abusers/etc).

I think reducing domestic abuse would have a load of other, equally beneficial outcomes. Child abuse may reduce (DV is present in 75% of child abuse cases according to NSPCC). Even antisocial behaviours such as littering may improve, because at the heart of abuse is the notion of entitlement, that "what I want is more important than what anyone else wants" and that can extend to more innocuous things like not wanting to carry litter home/not wanting to get a job/not wanting to help around the house, etc.

I am undecided about the best way to tackle it as it's a bit chicken-and-egg. Do you tackle the sense of entitlement and hope that reducing DV is a side-effect? Or do you tackle DV and hope that other social ills caused by entitlement disappear? I am still thinking about this.

Either way, DV needs treating more seriously with more severe punishments and the emphasis needs to change. Instead of trying to get women to armour themselves against it, we need to go after the men committing it. Protection is good and has a place, but unless it is accompanied by prevention and punishment, it simply becomes an exercise in victim blaming.

When SS are notified of a child at risk because of DV, instead of targetting the mother and threatening her with removal of the children because of failure to protect, they should actually have the power to forcibly evict the abuser and protect the children that way, recognising that a woman three-months post separation will see things much clearer and is usually able to protect her children herself, whereas in the immediate aftermath, the damage done to her may be so severe that she is incapable of it. Sometimes, acting in the best interests of the child means supporting the mother rather than castigating her for not being able to stand up to something that has centuries of cultural heritage normalising and minimising it.

Instead of sending abusers on perpetrator programmes they should be punished (since less than 5% of them are rehabilitated successfully anyway). The funding could instead be directed to sending women on programmes that help them to understand what has happened to them and to help them spot warning signs in the future and so break the cycle of abuse with their own children.

I'd like to see sex and relationship education in schools overhauled, with a greater emphasis on healthy and unhealthy relationships, including how that ties in division of domestic labour and sex/contraception. Condom use should be held up as the norm. There is a massive problem with younger generations refusing to wear condoms because of the proliferation of female-responsibility contraception. The sense of entitlement over women's bodies, access to sex and responsibility toward any resulting offspring starts here. We need to make refusal to wear condoms in the early stages of a relationship completely socially unacceptable.

As some offshoots of all this, a few other elements I'd like to see campaigned for are:

Scrapping of the CSA in favour of maintenance being automatically calculated/deducted/paid through the tax system. Avoids fraud and removes the excuse of 'we cannot find any record of him' (since very few people manage to escape the radar of HMRC). It sends a completely unequivocal message that maintenance is both parent's responsibility and cannot be shirked.

Increase in paid paternity leave to encourage more fathers to become involved early on with their DC (IME significant involvement for the first 12 months sets up a lifelong pattern even once both parents return to full-time work).

Overhaul of pensions and benefits to protect SAHMs. Any woman, married or cohabiting, who sacrifices working to raise children while her partner or husband is able to work because she is providing that childcare, should be entitled to a percentage of that man's pension or (preferably) payment into a pension of her own. This can be left to couples to sort out between themselves, but if no provision is made, a court can have the power to intervene if the couple later separate (even if the children have grown up). While this already applies to married couples, I think it should be applied to cohabiting couples once they have children. It is acceptable to reject marriage and the legal obligations to a partner that result of it. It is not acceptable to use lack of marriage to profit of your partner's unpaid labour. If you have children, you have a responsibility of care to them, and if you abdicate that daily care to your girlfriend, you owe her as well.

Sorry that's so long. You did ask... Blush

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 15:05

sunshine, thanks. I've noticed before I end up nodding along to your posts about this, so the last thing you need to do is apologize for a long one ... I think you're right, and the way you link up all the different issues is really key, isn't it?

I find the more I post on here the more I do think all sorts of issues are linked ... which is why we really need feminism ...

OP posts:
JosieRosie · 09/11/2011 15:09

My answers are YES and NO too!
The main issues for me are:

  • prevalence of rape, pathetic conviction rate, relatively widespread beliefs about women 'asking for it' through their behaviour/dress/whatever
  • ridiculous, ludicrous pressure to starve yourself skinny combined with equally offensive rubbish about how 'real women' are supposed to look ('curvy' i.e. any scrap of fat on your bones whatsoever)
  • frequency of stories in the media about women being beaten/raped/tortured/murdered by current or former partners
  • the way that women who work together are always pitted against each other by the media in the same old tired 'catfight' cliche e.g. Danni/Cheryl, Tulisa/Kelly, Cheryl/rest of Girls Aloud, Holly/Kara, Victoria B/rest of Spice Girls, Kim Cattrall/SJP etc etc
It's a depressing picture out there but I'm so proud to be a feminist Grin
EleanorRathbone · 09/11/2011 15:11

I agree with sunshineandbooks

2 major issues for me - violence against women, its prevalance, its lack of punishment and its usage as a means of controlling us (including sexual violence, obv)

The structure of society and the workplace, where working for money and parenting, are 2 almost mutually exclusive things in most people's lives and which is why so many women are forced either to be SAHMs when they don't want to be or poor and unvalued if they do want to be and where taking a couple of years out of the workplace, results in thirty years of lost earnings. We have to make it so that women can be mothers and still earn the same living as a man.

JosieRosie · 09/11/2011 15:16

sunshine, I just read your post and I looked like Churchill the nodding dog all the way through Grin Oh yes! Cannot agree more about what you say wrt sex education and legal protection for cohabiting parents - love it!

birdofthenorth · 09/11/2011 15:17

Stamp please. There is a massive business case for feminism today. The more women in senior roles, the smaller the gender pay gap, the more men taking on caring responsibilties, the more men and women in non-traditional occupations = greater growth, happier individuals, happier families, more productive organisations. Fact Smile

sunshineandbooks · 09/11/2011 15:39

I love this section. It makes me feel all validated. Grin

Interesting to see other feminist's POVs, too.

LRD - I totally agree with you about the linking of the different issues. We all have our own pet areas but it's really, really good to get together and put them in the context of the bigger picture.

Smile
WhollyGhost · 09/11/2011 16:07

Bravo sunshine.

I am not as eloquent as others here, but I do agree with Prolesworth that it is all about liberation from oppression. All kinds of oppression, from rape and domestic violence to minor sexual harassment and the weight of obligation that rests on mothers' shoulders.

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 09/11/2011 16:11

So am i getting this stamp or what? :o

LRDtheFeministDragon · 09/11/2011 16:52

I may have to admit the stamps were, erm, made up. Though if MNHQ wish to give us a Happy Feminist stamp, that'd be lovely. Smile

Your could have a pom bear if I could remember how to do them. Bear

To be serious ... yes, proles, I agree too.

OP posts:
forkful · 09/11/2011 16:56

I've read the OP and no replies as otherwise I probably would be influenced by them!

Yes and no to the questions btw. Grin

Um, being a feminist in 2011 means feeling connected to a line of women stretching back who felt "yes" to Q1 in a time when that was very very radical and who made lots of steps to try to get Q2 to "yes".

For me Q1 being a "yes" has always been a given but I only recently realised what a social construct "gender" was and how much we are influenced by society/family upbringing/history/advertising/language etc.

I never used to think about Q2 - it was just a sort of background given to me that things were equal. Then I became a mother and some things started filtering around in the back of my mind regarding being a mother v a father/careers etc/SAHM v WOHM. Then I had my lightbulb moment watching the BBC3 Women's Rights/Feminism program last year. It was literally a huge huge wake up call watching and listening to various influential 1970s feminists talk about what they had done and their experiences. I actually said to myself "forkful - what have you been doing these last years walking round with your eyes closed - I need to know more about feminism".

So I started googling/reading/discussing things here and then this section started up.

So what does being a feminist mean to me:

I bore discuss all things feminist with DH and family and a little bit to friends. I read feminist blogs. I read feminist books. I post here.
I go to feminist conferences. When I make time I email/sign petitions etc. I no longer read women's magazines or The Times and almost never click on Daily Fail links. Being much much more openminded in most things. Appreciating that individuals have many reasons to be SAHMs and WOHMs and respecting individuals choices and deciding that the first step was women achieving "as if they are men" (eg Maggie Thatcher) and deciding that I want women to be able to have sucessful careers (if they want) and combine these with caring - wanting changes in workplace practices and wanting fathers doing more caring to be more normal etc. (Personally I WOH part time and I'd like to see a range of flexible part time options for professional women so that their skills and perspective are not lost from the workplace).

The world seems a less fluffy lovely place now but everything makes sense and I feel invigorated by the challenge of fighting for equality.

What I want to make time to do:

Start my own blog. Get on twitter so that I can use that to spread my opinions/support others. Become a member of some feminist organisations by donating £. Work on my thoughts re things "beauty and fashion"

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