Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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Cote I would say that the quran commands us to follow Muhammad, and the sahabah, that is why we follow hadith, I will find the verses.

And I would say that there is outcry in the Muslim communities about things such as fgm and preventing women from being educated, not having mosque facilities for women etc, if you go on any Muslim forum you are likely to see this, it is related to the trend of debating cultural based faith that many of the new age Muslims are doing, and they try to distance themselves and educate about these types of issues, starting with their own families. One of the major issues that Muslims oppossed to culture based faith spend a lot if time addressing is racism within Muslim communities.

And those niqaabis I mentioned that were politicaly active, this is the type of thing (fgmm, women prisoners etc) that they spend a lot of time campaigning, protesting and raising awareness about.

There are many organisations run by Muslim women, for Muslim women dealing with issues such as forced marriage or dv and they use Islam in their work to demonstrate how it is not condoned.

The issue if I wear it because I want to and it makes me feel good can also be seen as indicative of wider trends within society, in which the rights of the individual are paramount as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Other examples could be open marriages, which we would say the same, as long as they are consenting, and it makes them feel good who are we to get involved.

This could be viewed as a result of secularisation, as the state does not dictate our moral bounds as much as previously, and we are free to choose from a spectrum of beliefs or spiritualaties, including those at either end.

Also spero, there are many Muslim majority countries, Algeria, turkey, Tunisia where the oppossite us the case and women are under pressure to not wear hijab, and are discriminated against if they do, the only countries I can think of wear face covering is forced is Saudi and Afghanistan?

And trust me, Muslim women do abhor the hijacking of their religion.

And other posters gave stated they want wider discussion, not reasons why individuals cover up, so we can't win really.

And to.say all.Muslims should protest against it, is a bit like saying all women should.protest against it, the majority of Muslims have a lack of.awareness just qsbthe majority.of women do.

Cote with this comment "a mere piece of cloth isn't whats liberating or oppressive, but the institutions, both cultural and governmental that force women to wear them or not to wear them" I meant that a piece of cloth is inanimate and it is not imbued with any significance until it is given one, the same way shackles would just be pieces of metal until they are used to oppress

No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you their judge in the disputes that break out between them and then do not resist what you decide and submit themselves [to you] completely. (Surat an-Nisa': 65)

Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed. (Surat al-Najm: 3-4)

Therefore, this makes clear that ahadith are a part of the revelations.Indeed, Qur'an is also a revelation.But ahadith are also said by syeddina rasulullah salellahualaihiwasalam.So if you say that it is wrong, then you go against the above ayah.

You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

Now tell me, if you ignore ahadith.Then how will you know what he sas has asked you to abandon and then accept as well?

re "Muslim feminists"

Oh I knew one in Turkey. A very articulate and intelligent writer, she wore a headscarf and was very vocal on TV programs about the place of women in Islam and the need for reform, including the right for women to pray alongside men in mosques.

One day, she was abducted in front of her husband. Nobody knew what happened to her until her tortured and partly decomposed body was found in the underground chambers of a Hizbullah house two years later. She had to be identified from her dental records. Tapes of her "interrogation" were discovered in the same house. Hizbullah announced that she deserved death because she was an advocate of secularism and an enemy of Islam who led to confusion and poisoned Muslims with her ideas.

Since then, we haven't seen any Muslim feminists. Wonder why.

Incidentally, this is why I don't travel to Muslim countries. In many of these places, people can be very tolerant and permissive of foreign tourists, but strangely hostile at a "Muslim" who doesn't act like one. Someone who should be like them but isn't. Very dangerous place to be.

subhanallah, May Allah grant her jannah and punish those responsible.

What on earth do you mean "We haven't seen any Muslim feminists"? I know loads and not just in the West either. Did this poor woman have a name btw?

has anyone heard of amina wadud?

Also, like most Muslim countries don't have plenty of non-practising Muslims/ people of other religions. Plus, it's known that many Turks are secular.

I doubt you are in danger whatsoever, but don't let that stop you from smearing Muslims.

Nailak - Meee! Very interesting woman indeed as is Ingrid Matteson.

Yes, she had a name Her name was Konca Kuris.

I meant we haven't seen any Muslim feminists in Turkey, obviously.

nailak - She was strangled (or drowned? Same word in Turkish) precisely so that she would not go to heaven, apparently. Do you know why that would be?

Nailak, as our resident expert (hope you don't mind!)- could I ask you a question? I remember reading a book by an Egyptian feminist years ago saying that Muslim and Western feminism differed in the struggles that they faced; that the entrenched belief in Western cultures was of women's intellectual inferiority, whereas it was clearly accepted in Muslim cultures that women were intellectual equals (and that the issues there were more to do with sexuality).

Certainly when I lived in Turkey many many moons ago I was struck by the confidence that women had in their own intellectual abilities and the men's acknowledgement of this (at least the men that I mixed with), whilst here we are constantly having to prove ourselves in that respect. Would you say that was true in your experience?

Sorry to be so generalistic, but I'm really interested in the differences between the two feminisms and how they are affected by the differences in cultural history.[hsmile]

Goth - "Secular" means "separation of religion and state" so not sure what you mean by "most Turks are secular". Turkey as a country is secular, like France. Turks living there have no choice but live in a secular manner.

Do you mean "practicing"?

Most Turks are actually practicing Muslims (believe in God, pray, fast during Ramadan, etc) but they are not fundamentalist Muslims (not literal followers of Quran & Hadith so they don't cover heads, segregate men/women, wear bikinis etc).

Fyi, it is not a paranoid fantasy that "Muslim" strangers in many Muslim countries are held up to different standard than non-Muslims. A Muslim English friend of Indian origin is about to move to a Muslim country because of her Christian DH's work. She has spoken to UK consulate there for guidance and they warned her that she would need to act the same as local women and like other expat wives if she wishes to avoid problems. Apparently, they could apply for alcohol license for home consumption, but they won't, in case for example the cleaner realizes that it is not only her husband who is drinking.

By the way, everyone can see that you are overly sensitive on this subject, but if you really think I am "smearing Muslim" here, you need to work on this.

I am not saying anything that is not true. Talking truth albeit unpleasant truth is not "smearing". And I wouldn't smear Muslims if you wanted me to, because most of my friends and family are Muslims.

Just spent 45 mins reading this thread beginning to end- good to see that prejudice against Islam is alive and well!!

Always so interesting to see how a debate on a specific topic descends into general 'discussion' about the rights and wrongs of the religion.

I agree that most people/women are apathetic, I am not singling out Muslim women as having a particular duty to protest or be informed. But those who chose to veil must surely understand they are adopting a very particular and visible symbol?

I have tried to inform myself about what British Muslim women say about the hi jacking of their religion. I googled 'British Muslim women protest' and the top result is French Muslim women protesting against ban on veil!

There isn't anything on the first page of results to indicate to me that there is sustained protest from British Muslims about the hijack and perversion of their religion. Please do link me to particular groups that will help me be better informed and understand more.

Cote, you said that "everyone can see that you are overly sensitive on this subject."

Can you please not presume to speak for everyone here? Frankly, I would never do that regardless of whether the subject matter were thorny or mundane.

My perspective on what is happening is very different from yours. I see women who have identified as Muslim here being expected to explain, ustify or refute every anecdote and factoid that anyone throws them about Islam.

We get that here with some of the "deliberate derailers" and MRA's, picking and picking at people with questions about feminism. One one could be forgiven for thinking their intention is not to learn, but to revile feminism and feminists. This is looking just the same to me.

Spero, with respect, you can surely do your own research. Just because what you wanted didn't turn up on the first few links in Google doesn't mean the information isn't out there to be found.

I'm getting this weird sense that some people believe they are entitled to not only use Muslim Feminists as guinea pigs to justify, deny or refute whatever they've heard about Islam, but also entitled to use them as an inexhaustible source of information on Islam (whether or not they genuinely want to learn from them.)

Feeling quite sick from reading this thread.

Well, KRITIQ, maybe it's not so clear to you

From the second she arrived on this thread, Goth has been going on about how Muslims are always attacked on these threads although there had been none of that here. She is still in an aggressive/defensive posture, with strange comments like "Does she have a name?" as if I would make up a detailed lie about the kidnap, torture, and murder of Muslim feminist.

I thought it was obvious to everyone, but maybe not to you.

cote - i have never heard of this, Allah is with the oppressed, regardless of religion, i will research this.

also an intepretation of the word secular could mean lack of religion in public life, and if you view it this way, by not wearing hijab etc Turks are secular as they view their faith as a matter of private conviction and do not display it through outward symbols?

messy personally i would say that both womens sexuality (within marriage/home) and intellectual ability are enshrined in Islam, it is recognised in Islam that women have desires and this is natural, and they should be able to fulfill these desires in a halal way (ie marriage)

unfortunately i would say that patriarchal islam, and muslim communities struggle on both these issues. for example a women couldnt tell her parents that she wishes to get married as she wants to fulfil her desires in a halal way instead of being constantly tempted.

Intellectualy there is a commandment for all Muslims to seek knowledge, although some muslim communities cant see the point in educating women as they are expected to be "only" sahm's, they say for educating kids etc women need only basic education, women shouldnt go to mixed environments unneccessarily to study (although i am not sure why men can ).

so tbh muslim cultures differ greatly, and i am not that familiar with turkish muslims (ie i dont know any) but the issues there are likely to be different from the issues in the subcontinent/ arabia/ africa/ indonesia etc

spero those who are trying to raise awareness often do it in a different, less formal manner, ie through fb pages, through discussions in circles or with family etc, and not neccessarily through organisations. although i am sure isocs play a part.

Posie, you may be fed up of people who claim to follow Islam. I'm not. I'm fed up on people dictating what makes a feminist to other feminists.

I don't know much about Islam, but I would believe that the Qu'ran is open to interpretation, depending on the reader, and the environment it's read in. I know that's the way my mother taught me to read the bible as a child.

Talking of which, wouldn't you say Chrisitanity is pretty oppressive of women, if you take it at face value? Just something to consider, if you're going to criticise Islam.

I'm pretty generous about all patriarchal religions, which is pretty much all, when it comes to criticism.

Spero - Did you not read the link I posted here? It had links to several groups.

So cote I looked it up and there are hadiths that. Say those who drown have the status of martyr...