Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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Sorry, Goth I will go back to your posts and check again. I did go to one link about why women covered, but it seemed to be mostly poetry and musings - but still interesting.

Kritiq - of course, if there was world enough and time I could spend hours researching and reading. But I don't have enough time, that is why I come on threads like this because I am hoping to make use of the intelligence and knowledge of others who can give me a precis or point me to some other info.

I am puzzled as to why there seems to be this irritation with providing information and having a debate.

Nalik - I am sure there are many informal ways women are trying to raise awareness etc. But I am interested as to why there don't seem to be more organised and 'formal' ways of protesting against the stonings in Iran, Afghanistan, Nigeria etc, the enforced FGM in Somalia etc, the treatment of women in Pakistan etc, etc. The only evidence I see of formal and organised protests is about things like banning the veil in France.

I don't want to be accused of smearing Muslims or Muslim bashing - because I honestly don't think I do and would be upset if that is how you perceived me - BUT do you understand how this kind of reporting/lack of reporting makes me suspicious that Muslim women may feel afraid to come out and condemn the kinds of practices enshrined in sharia law? The only widespread protests appear to be AGAINST any kind of attempt to remove/dilute impact of sharia.

Is that just my misperception/consequence of Western biased reporting, or do I have a point?

Spero - I know you are well intentioned, but you must remember that this is not the first burqa thread on MN, it's not even the 10th. And on every single thread people ask the same questions, do the same inability to Google, over and over again.

Shall I tell you something, I don't enjoy these threads. I don't think any Muslim MNer does. It is time consuming and so tedious. But the alternative is allowing the ignorance and dislike to fester and having experienced that far too often in RL, I feel like I have to combat it, even though I'd much rather be doing other things.

Please read this and have a think about it: www.derailingfordummies.com/#educate

P.S I would argue that media representation of Muslims is sub optimal for a variety of reasons, let's be honest, the media representation of anyone who isn't a rich white man is crap.

P.P.S You may find this to be of interest www.mwnuk.co.uk/content.php?id=82

Goth, thanks for that link. I really like the BigSister website that is linked to it via Shaista Gohir.

It was interesting to read on the mythbuster page that many of the ideas that disempower women in Islamic teaching were the interpretation of one man, Abu Huraryah. A bit like the Christian St Paul and his silly anti-women nonsense.

To me it just shows that all religions are subject to interpretation and there is so much confusion between the essential truth of the religion itself and the prejudices of society at the time that the men wrote down the texts and that inevitably comes through.

It is interesting to see how Muslim feminists seek to advance women's rights through a better interpretation of Islamic texts, rather than reject the religion entirely. IMO, that's pretty optimistic and I hope they succeed.

because seriously if there is racism in a family or fgm practiced in a family, how is an organisation going to help, more then individuals who are educated within that family speaking up?

there are organisations as anne has pointed out, but also these people are less likely to listen to outsiders and would be suspicious of organisations telling them what to do. the best way to stop fgm is people of our generation just saying no mum i will not mutilate my daughter. and many have started to do that. the reason being is the islamic revival and fight against culture led faith which i have previously talked about, and them realising that fgm is not from shariah and there is no benefit in it.

shariah does mention female circumcision, the description comes with a less is more warning and it is similar to the surgical procedure of clitoral hood removal, www.islamqa.com/en/ref/82859/female%20circumcision.

many muslims join amnesty international and spread their press releases, for the issues of stonins etc? there doesnt need to be a specific musllim organisation when there is amnesty international which reaches such a large amount of people, has such a high profile, and can exert pressure

www.amnesty.org/en/campaigns/stop-violence-against-women

Goth, I understand your frustration if you feel you ate being asked to explain over and over again but the real value of sites like this ,IMO, is that we can have almost real time discussion and engagement with real people about issues alien to us.

I often read the response 'o not this again, why don't you just search the archives' and I think that is missing the point.

I would like to ask my questions my way to get an answer hopefully I will understand.

If it upsets you that much, why not just post some links at the beginning and say, here's some basics for those new to this. The Feminism 101 is a very good example of that.

You may get pissed off by covering old ground but I also get pissed off being told my queries are tediously familiar. Well, they are not to me.

O and cheers for the 'derailing for dummies' link.

Really makes me warm to the quality of your arguments and the depth of your engagement.

Sarcastic emoticon.

Spero, what makes me uneasy here is that you seem to suggest that you are "entitled" to explanations from those who have identified as Muslim feminists here, just because you are a novice.

Most of us have benefited from the knowledge and insights of others during our lives and I for one am grateful for those who gave their time, who listened patiently, who explained and helped me understand. I'm also grateful for those who didn't spoon feed me, who challenged me to find things out for myself and even chided me for expecting to have it all laid out on a plate for me.

If you genuinely want to learn, you'll put in the grunt work to find things out. Unfortunately, there are alot of folks who purport to be interested in learning, but they are really more intent in taking up alot of people's time, of questioning the detail of every sentence, of arguing minor points while ignoring the primary ones, of getting very indignant when folks can't understand why they haven't yet "grasped" concepts which have been thoroughly explained and referenced.

In my experience, their goal isn't to learn or change. They have firmly held beliefs about an issue, whether they are willing to admit it or not. They are just looking for "evidence" to back up what they believe and in particular, to refute contrary arguments. Some even get a buzz out of frustrating and winding up those they claim to want to learn from.

Now, I'm not saying that you are like that. I am only describing this phenomenon because I am pretty sure that nailak, GothAnn and pretty much every feminist who contributes regularly here will recognise what I've described above. How are they supposed to know if you are "genuine," or if you are yet another person just looking for an excuse to abandon feminism and blame feminists for "pushing you out," or in this case, "not helping you" in your learning.

For me, the measure of sincerity would be gratitude towards those who've shared their experiences and insights, acceptance that they don't have endless time and energy to teach and guide a novice and a willingness to do your own grunt work. Oh, and not getting shirty when you don't get the answers you want or when someone says, "perhaps you should go look into that for yourself."

I'm not sure one that wears the garments of oppression is the right person to excuse it. Many great Muslim women all over the world have opposed the Burka on the grounds of feminism.

I spoke to a woman today whose best friend is a Muslim, herself and husband from Iraq. That women has to wear the hijab for her husband, but shakes her hair in a most liberated way as soon as she's inside. I don't think she's unusual, she would much rather not cover.

Sorry, oppression as others see it.

it is oppressive

it was designed to oppress women, they became invisible to the outside world become just a women with a piece of cloth over her face she is nameless to the outside world

some women have chosen to wear a niqab in countries where they have a choice then no i guess it is not they have made that choice but the vast majority who wear it are forced to there is nothing liberating at that

Spero So you've you've acknowledged (and read) that link, what about the other's I've posted? Twice you've asked for links and twice I've posted them, but you fail to read or engage with them and wonder why I get snotty.

FS Nailak has already spoken of being able to recognize women she knows while wearing niqab, I can too. So these women aren't nameless or anonymous to me or to many others who are familiar with niqab wearers. You statement comes from your own personal perception, but you state it as if it were the absolute truth.

There is no way are knowing exactly what percentage of women are forced to wear it, so it is foolish to talk of the majority of women being forced to wear it. Certainly and definitely, forced veiling should be opposed, just as forced unveiling should be.

Posie - I'm certain that A bigot with a fixation is the worst person to talk about these issues is, but you're still here. The fact you claim to want to empower Muslim women but then deny us any agency in our lives is downright creepy. A thread about Muslim women, with no Muslim women allowed to be on it?!

er, posie we all take hijab/jilbab/niaqaab off when inside? it is an outer garment to wear outside?

and ffs who HAS to do anything for their husbands in this country? people can choose to do things because it makes their spouse happy, or because it makes their marriage better if they take each others feelings and views in to consideration, but i doubt that the woman is actually at risk of harm if she doesnt wear hijab?

Nailak - but do you shake your hair in a liberated way when doing so?

Or, do you just put it on your hijab shelf/ hook/whatever, next to your coat and go and make a cup of tea?

Muslim women - not as freaky as you think.

you may recognise women you know by the way the walk but what about a stranger, what is she to everyone else she is faceless, she has no identity this is just what is was designed for to take away a women?s identity to the outside world where it is not important for her to have one

saudi, iran, communities within afganistan, pakistan, eygpt and other parts of the middle east many of these women have no choice, they have very little choice over their lives wearing a niqab is just another way to oppress these women

FS - not to me. I do not determine someone's personhood based on fabric. Go and read something by a niqab wearer and find out what she thinks of her identity.

"Muslim women - not as freaky as you think"

Quick, get that on a teeshirt, or even a hijab! [hgrin]

anne unfortunately the tea gets left until after sorting out the kids, which seems to take ages, and recently i was fed up of hijabs everywhere and the door lookin messy so bought hooks of ebay so now the door looks slightly less messy...

the only sister i know in saudi is a white revert who is married to a white revert, she works teaching english.

she has a choice to be there or not, but would rather be in saudi then here?

which parts of pakistan are people forced to wear niqaab? and which other countries in arabia apart from saudi? surely in egypt niqaab isnt required?

often women i see who wear niqaab i dont actually know them properly, they are like mums on the school run etc, so i have never seen their face, but instead of looking at them and saying they are faceless, i am a stranger or whatever i had a brain to know they have a face and a personality, and opinions? and i recognise them by their clothes, ie what type of niqaab, what hijaab, as well as their eyes, and height etc

i dont understand how they dont have an identity? do i not have an identity to you as you cant see my face? if you speak to someone via phone/email only do they not have an identity?

btw fs if choice is taken away it is definitely an oppression

what a women who wears it through choice she can also choose to stop wearing but yes she will talk about not being a slave to fashion, to being a sexual being to other men but she has a choice many many women do not have that choice

was it designed by women, enforced by women no it was by men, slave masters used it to to keep their women safe from being raped rather keep their virginity so they were more profitable to sell and in other communities the wealthy women wore it while the women who were slaves didn't to identify there were slaves. not sure how that is freeing to women in anyway

I am one of the few white non-Muslim parents at my dc's school and when we first moved here I was a bit daunted by seeing so many women wearing a niqab, so I did what you do when you go to a new school: looked people in the eye, said hello and struck up conversation. I don't know every mother at school now (who does?) but there are plenty of niqab-wearing school mums who I recognise when I pass them in the street. You only have to pay attention - say hello, listen, look at people's faces. The idea that the niqab veils identity is daft: everyone carries themselves differently, wears different shoes, different veils. And everyone's eyes are different, for goodness sake. Women wear the niqab in different ways. Women wear make up in different ways (and don't get me started on heels). Sometimes it's oppressive, sometimes it isn't. Now I live in and participate in a community where many women are publicly veiled, I am ashamed of my old attitude (and assumption that it was automatically oppressive). My mum picked up the dcs one day and asked me if the other children would recognise their own (veiled) mothers and I reeled. Of course they do, and there's absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be able to at the very least distinguish between women as long as I make the effort to interact rather than slap on a one-size-fits-all judgement.

nailak and ffs who HAS to do anything for their husbands in this country? people can choose to do things because it makes their spouse happy, or because it makes their marriage better if they take each others feelings and views in to consideration, but i doubt that the woman is actually at risk of harm if she doesnt wear hijab?

seriously? you don't think there are people (or all or no faiths) in this country who HAVE to do things for their husbands?

you are being naive in the extreme - you need to take a look on the relationships board here and read up on male priviledge and women's position in marriage.

I totally accept that this is not the case for you but when I see women out shopping faces covered accompanied by men in western dress then sometimes from the woman's body language (subservient/not confident) I am so so sad for them and I wonder about their home life.

But are we talking about how a garment was historically used, or its current use? It's effects on societies in the past or present?

And I am still under the impression Saudi and Afghanistan are the only places it is enforced? Please provide evidence for Egypt and Pakistan as I am ignorant of this and so is every Pakistani I have met. My sils sis wears niqaab in front of bil in Pakistan and this caused a contraversy and family issues. I have never met her or been there.

rookery thank you for your sensible attitude and input, your post made me smile and say mashallah. Can I ask you how you feel these women are limited or seperated from society? Do they participate in pta, school events, governor's more or less then those who don't veil? From those you are friendly with, is there any common educational level or do any work?

So if a woman is veiled and husband is western dress you assume opression? Thank you for that insight, would it apply only to veiled women or those otherwise dressed in hijab etc?

I am going to tell my husband so I can encourage him to wear thobe. It's bad for dawah wearing jeans love, never mind that bush on your face....

rookery that was very interesting - I guess the recognising individuals is something which you have tuned in to.

Do you really think that these women have a completely free choice?

oh no - you don't get to turn my carefully considered "sometimes from the woman's body language (subservient/not confident) I am so so sad for them"

into "So if a woman is veiled and husband is western dress you assume opression?" No. No. No. No. No.

did you see my question "seriously? you don't think there are people (or all or no faiths) in this country who HAVE to do things for their husbands? "