Asa feminist what do you think about the burkha/niqab, liberating or oppressive?

[DarlingDuck]

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Actually claiming that if it's not in the Quran it's not in Islam is a bit of a smoke screen. There's also the question of the Hadith (sayings and tales of the prophet) and fique (jurispudence). Much of Islamic custom and practise comes from hadith, which is where you will fid the tales of slaughter of the Banu Qurayzah tribe and the enslavement of their women, and there's a sliding scale about how reliable they are. There are (scrabbles through old memories from degree) 4 schools of fique, so effectively there are four basic interpretations of islamic law. It's a fairly broad church.

And, just to muddy the waters further, the oldest versions of the qu'ran were written in a form of classical arabic that has no vowell markers. This is pretty much unreadable to amodern audience so, depite the claims that the qu'ran is easy to read and still read in the original, it isn't on either counts. This is why you occasionally hear stories about mistranslations. An example is the Islamic heaven which is ful of "dark eyed houris (maidens)". However, take out the vowell dots and revert to an older form of arabic and it could also be read as white grapes, which fits in rather nicely with the islamic view of heaven as a cool garden, but is not as appealing to suicide bombers

and dont forget the majority of hadiths were narrated by a woman, Ayesha ra.

but i guess by mentioning her i just opened up a whole new kettle of fish.

Slug - Not true and the "white grapes" has been thoroughly discredited. Yet more of "those stupid Muslims, they don't even know their own religion" stuff.

Discussions on this or similar topics always make me feel queasy. I understand that many will have strong feelings on the topic, or strong feelings on religion (e.g. it's very important to them and their identity or conversely, they see no value in religion for themselves or anyone else.)

But, so often, it seems to end up that a small group of people end up seemingly "quizzed" about their beliefs. Sometimes, it's genuine curiosity and people want to know more. Other times, it comes across as expecting people to "prove" what they believe, but without any willingness to engage with them, where one has strong feelings in the opposite direction.

It starts to look like those being quizzed are being used as "guinea pigs," and expected to offer up their personal experiences for scrutiny by others.

I've seen this happen in a very unpleasant way in bad diversity training - where the one or two Black people, gay people or women's experiences are used as "case studies," and end up getting picked apart and sometimes even vilified by others who frankly, don't want to know. It can leave the few people who share their experiences feeling pretty vulnerable and sore.

Speaking personally, I don't believe faith, belief and feminism are incompatible. For me, they are intrinsically linked. I accept that that is not the case for others and their view is equally valid to mine. I choose not to discuss this on MN, however, because for a range of reasons, it does not feel "safe" to do so.

I think that when discussing Islam/Christianity it's always easier without believers, the discussion is far more free and 'defenders' tend to do so with good argument and not blind faith. Criticism is welcomed as part of the debate and not considered offensive.

All too often those that seek to defend all Muslims/Christians/believers then have to repeat that not all Believers/Muslims/Christians whatever think the same.

It's difficult when faced with defenders of their own faith to really dig and pull apart faith lead culture or anything really.

there is a reasoning that says to study a religion, you need to include study of the followers of that religion as well as academic and theological views of the religion.

for example cote often refers to her grandparents and non believers have spoken in this threads about their personal experiences and beliefs.

im not sure then why believers personal opinions and beliefs or family traditions couldnt be taken in to count?

isnt discussin believers without including believers, like a group of men discussing womens issues, without including women?

and if you visit muslim forums, you will see that there are regular topics disecting faith led culture, or as they would view it, culture led faith.

the fact is if you are discussing an item that is worn for reasons of faith then obviously defenders are going to use faith as an argument?

It's not a case of being defended though is it? You can never really answer the questions why do people cover if we have to talk about individuals and can't talk about the 1.2 billion others. As soon as someone pops up with "I wear mine out of choice" it stifles the broader discussion about how we get to that place. How many Iranians, properly oppressed Muslims, feel such freedom without cover. Yet women here place themselves into a submissive appearance. No offence but I'm not here to talk about you, I prefer wider issues, broad trends and experiences.

It's a bit like when p*ernet prostitutes come and talk about how much they love their job.

slug - Actually, Allah says very clearly in the Quran that it is perfect, complete, fully detailed, and all you need to know to follow Islam. Therefore, if something is not in the Quran, like female circumcision or face veil, than it is not a part of Islam as detailed by God Himself.

Hadith is hearsay. It is Chinese whispers. Believe it if you wish, but even the quotes that are correct would be no more than a game of "follow the leader". Which you don't need to do because Islam is between you and your God, who was very clear that you need to know nothing more than what is in the Quran to walk the path that leads to Him.

I've heard it all now, it's better to discuss Muslims without Muslims being present and we Muslim women are equivalent to prostitutes, but you're not actually interested in what we have to say anyway because we're not the "right" kind of Muslims.

You're just trolling now Posie and it's disgusting.

Cote - You don't even believe in God, so leave off all the what is the wrong and right type of Islam, it's patronising and condescending.

Weren't we meant to be specifically talking about the niqab? Oh, I forgot, it's the regular Insult Muslim Women thread with the usually suspects spouting their bigotry.

And Posie, both Saudi and Iran are a small percentage of the world's Muslim population, so so much for your wider issues.

Again, you just want to spout bigoted rubbish.

How about a slight re-working of Posie's contribution above?

I think that when discussing feminism it's always easier without feminists, the discussion is far more free and 'defenders' tend to do so with good argument and not blind faith. Criticism is welcomed as part of the debate and not considered offensive.

All too often those that seek to defend all feminists then have to repeat that not all feminists think the same.

It's difficult when faced with defenders of feminism to really dig and pull apart feminist culture or anything really.

Or perhaps try the same with "socialism" or any other ideology or belief system. No matter how you slice it, it doesn't come out nicely.

but i didnt say that because i dont wear it? i spoke about trends i noticed amongst niqaabis in uk, niqaab use in the uk is a growing trend

i spoke about islamic revival as part of a post modernist society, in which there is greater spiritual choice reflective of consumerism,

and i spoke about islamic revival in iran compared to celtic/pagan/wicca revival as people joining spiritualities that were traditionally and historically connected to the land they reside in?

how about this, as reflective of a consumerist society in which freedoms of the individual and personal choice are emphasised, many british born muslim women make the choice to wear niqaab.

is that enough wide trends and broad issues?

oh and i spoke about the trend in religious studies to involve followers of a faith and insider perspectives when studying religion.

Cote if you wish to have a discussion about validity of hadith, espescially those that are mass transmitted, then that is possible. still dont understand why you feellike your version of Islam can be the only acceptable version? and you dismiss all the other versions and interpretations?

Do you believe there should be one "state" sanctioned version of Islam? or maybe one version sanctioned by something other then a state? do you believe that someone else can dictate how another person should believe in and intpret and follow their religion?

Goth - Yes, I'm a lifelong atheist - so what? I know what I am talking about, as you are well aware.

If there was any error in my posts, you would have pointed those out rather than whine about non-believers talking (frustrating truth) about Islam.

Sorry, I mean no disrespect. I just come from this from an academic rather than a faith position. I totally agree with you about Chinese whispers and Ayesha.

I think it's perfectly possible to hold faith yet stand apart and view things dispassionately. There is a good deal of academic study into the writings that informed the Quran for example. But does knowing sections of the book existed before Mohammed lessen the impact of the book as a whole? I think not. Islam is, after all, part of a long tradition of monotheistic religions from the Middle East who all borrowed each other's writings. It doesn't seem to bother Christians that much of their canon is Jewish.

But I digress. The monotheistic Middle East religions are all strongly patriarchal. To live voluntarily within such a system is to have to daily do battle with a long, long tradition of female oppression. You do what you have to do to stay sane.

Goth. No it's not trolling, it's requesting that people don't make an open discussion personal.

Obviously the froth is getting in the way of common sense, again, and 'bigot' starts. This sort of hand wringing that stifles discussion.

Erm, I don't believe that I suggested 1.2 billion Muslims were Iranian, did I?

You choose to be Muslim, you choose to follow a rule book, I choose to think it ridiculous.

I'm fed up with people claiming to be feminists when they follow Islam, it offends me. If you stand as a Muslim/Christian/theist of any patriarchal type you cannot be a feminist.

Posie, what gives YOU the absolute right to decide the criteria for being a "real feminist?" How absolutely audacious!

I will add to that that I respect your right to believe that for YOU, religious faith and feminism are incompatible, but you seem to be trying to dictate the "one right way" for others. It's bad enough having MRA types telling folks they're doing feminism wrong. Now this? Geez.

Bollocks Posie. Be fed up. Be offended. Get to know a few other feminists who aren't 'just like you'.

Posie,why on earth not?

Are you really sayimg there are no women who are believing Christians/Muslims who are also feminist? Really?

And KRITIQ,your post of 21:48:32 is exactly what my reaction to Posie's post was...

nailak - re "your version of Islam"

I don't have a version. What I have said are facts of your religion. Quran is very clear that it is a standalone book. In it, God says that Quran is perfect, complete, fully detailed, and all you need to know to be Muslim - fact. There is no mention of covering faces in the Quran - another fact.

Are you disputing any of this?

What "version" would contradict the above facts?

If you had said "Women wear veil because they want to", there is little to say. However, when you say "They wear it because they believe it is required in Islam", you get to hear the above. Not a "version", but simple truth. You know it, I know it, and so does anyone else who has read the Quran.

To some extent I agree with Posie. The really difficult thing for me in this debate is how I don't see Muslims in the West criticising the barbaric things done to women in other countries in the name of their religion.

I know that genital mutilation and covering of the face are not required in the Koran but many Muslim societies demand such practices from their people, as good Muslims.

why isn't there more of an outcry against this sort of thing? Why will women in France martyr themselves in the civil courts formthe 'right' to cover their face but not march in protest at the brutal and degrading treatment of their sisters in Afghanistan?

Or are these protests happening and they arebjust not reported because the Western media is, I agree, biased against Muslims?

I dontnknow, but I suspect protests are simply not widespread.

I do not think it is racism, trolling or Muslim bashing to ask these women who freely chose to wear a garment so indelibly linked for most western women with the slavery and oppression of other women to please explain and help us understand what is going on when you cover your face.

Spero, it's not racist or Islamaphobic to ask women who choose to wear a specific garment. But, when they give an honest answer, and the reply is a brazen statement saying their views don't matter and they can't be genuine feminists, well then it at the very least "skirts the margins," if not more, imho.

What I am struggling with, is not that I doubt the honesty of the answer, but I don't understand the content of the answer.

What I have gleaned so far is that the Koran is held to be all that a Muslim needs to know the right path their god wishes them to follow. The Koran is clear and easy to understand. No where did the Muslim god ever demand of his female followers that they cover their face and thus he could not have gone on to demand that women should be punished for failing to cover up.

My understanding of why women 'chose' to do it in the West is thus that it must be an element at least of competitive piety. Women in other countries are not 'choosing' to cover up as they face beatings and death if they don't.

For me, this is the elephant in the room. That a large portion of western Muslim women do not seem to be able to articulate (and more importantly openly abhor) the way their religion has been hijacked by brutal, primitive men who do not accord women equal status as human beings.

Spero - The Muslims don't condemn enough is a common canard.

What does it mean to openly abhor? Do I have to go around with a sign on my back?

Just Google Muslim feminist and see some of the work that Muslim women are doing for Muslim women's rights, before you write us off. There is a lot of work going on at grass roots to fight domestic violence, like this: www.marwaaly.com/2011/10/muslims-chaplains-against-domestic-violence/

I have some friends in the Sudan, who spend their time travelling from village to educate against FGM. All this and more is out there, if you take the time to look