Facebook supports rape?

[MotherPanda]

Have we a thread on this yet?

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/04/facebook-hate-speech-women-rape?newsfeed=true

I am really shocked.

Just got in.

Bemybebe yes I think your amendment is what the author meant. It is how I took it - I agree with Kritiq though that some people would argue with her article no matter how things were phrased as they simply don't like what she's saying.

Also wanted to say I am so sorry to read upthread what you went through with those men.

Thing is rhubarb I just disagree with so much of what you post on here today.

eg this

"I have said that I disagree that rapists rape because they can, there is never a crime without a motive. We do not mug because we can, we do not murder because we can. It is a simple excuse that does not wash. But I am accused of making all this up as I go along."

People commit a criminal act when they speed in their car, when they talk on a mobile phone while driving, when they take some ecstacy at the weekend. People do these things because they can - they do not think they will get caught and they don't think they are "that bad". They do not see them as "serious" and do not think punishment is likely and so they just do them. I simply do not agree with your statement above. I just don't think it's true. The motive in these cases is convenience / pleasure / enjoyment / everyone else does it so I'm going to do it too. They aren't motives like the motive for murder, they are everyday "ordinary" motivations.

I don't mind you disagreeing SQ. What I mind is when my posts are not read properly and people accuse me of being some kind of rape apologist or put words into my mouth that were never uttered or even thought. To be told that I myself said such things about rape and rape victims is abhorrent and hurtful and completely untrue bordering on slander (if this was in my real name).

I understand that you think rapists believe rape not to be a crime. However what I am saying that in this day and age I do not buy for one second that anyone can think having a shag with a drunk woman is not a crime. Your argument may give them a defence, I am saying they do not have one.

Most people do not break the law just because they can, they do so for a reason and that is their motive. The reasons you gave may seem petty reasons for breaking the law, but they are still reasons. If rapists rape because they enjoy it or it is convenient, that is still a motive and they do know they are breaking the law.

If you look at countries which have extremely high incidences of rape, it's not the case that the men there are more prone to having psychological problems or being evil or whatever it is. They do it because it's something that you do, something that your friends do, it's not a big deal, you're not going to get punished, no-one will think badly of you, it's expected that you do it, maybe it's a rite of passage etc etc.

Men in these countries aren't different to men in other countries - they are simply living in a different culture, a culture where rape is seen as basically normal and an occupational risk of being female.

I think I'm saying the same as proles actually!

The point is that although people like to think we live in a culture where rape is absolutely anathema, we don't. The statistics and surveys about public attitudes show that.

I find your posts circular and contradictory rhubarb.

You say one thing, and when I ask you about it, you say something very different.

"I understand that you think rapists believe rape not to be a crime"

I don't think I've said that anywhere on this thread.

"However what I am saying that in this day and age I do not buy for one second that anyone can think having a shag with a drunk woman is not a crime. Your argument may give them a defence"

Of course loads of men don't see shagging a drunk woman as a crime.

And now you are saying that I am handing a defence to rapists?

You are handing a defence to rapists by saying that if they are not

To clarify

Men know what rape is
They just don't connect it with situations outside stranger rape/dark alleyway/violence etc

GAH Some men don't connect it. Or women for that matter.

Sorry for multiple posts.

from here

"New statistics have revealed nearly half of young men still think sex with women too drunk to know what is going on is not rape.

And 46% of men aged 18 to 25 also do not consider it rape if the woman changes her mind during sex."

Sorry, I thought what you were saying is that in some cultures rape is normal and therefore not thought of as a crime?

I don't know where I am being contradictory, I am trying to make my posts as clear as I can.

We are not talking about other countries. This debate started off from an article talking about men in THIS country. My point is that men in this country know that rape is not only a crime but completely and utterly unacceptable. Are you saying that they believe some rape is acceptable?

Yes some rapists do use the defence claim of ignorance "I didn't know that having sex whilst she was asleep was rape" and I do believe - not sure but I think I remember? - that someone has got away with the crime with that very defence. In this country. I will try to find the case later on but right now I have to make tea.

I think with so much media coverage or rape and rape cases, men cannot claim to be ignorant of what constitutes rape and we should not give them that excuse. In my opinion, when a rapist rapes, he knows exactly what he is doing and also in my opinion, in this country where rape is not accepted, is not culturally normal and is not common, rapists do have criminal characteristics as Jamma stated earlier.

I know you disagree with that and so I am happy to disagree on that issue.

I hope you accepted my earlier apology for upsetting you.

I would be interested to know how many men were questioned for that and under what circumstances.

I don't buy the ignorance excuse. I believe it is just that - an excuse.

Rhubarb, if you are interested, here are some references so you can see the numbers surveyed and the methodology used.

Wake Up to Rape Study by The Havens, 2010
Report of Davies and Rogers study about male lack of sympathy for rape victims Sorry - no immediate access to the full study.
role and attitudes toward rape in male and female college students www.springerlink.com/content/q2148372h4vk0170/ (sorry, again just an abstract atm.)
Epps, et. al 1993 - an old article, but cites useful evidence that contradicts the idea that rapists have uniquely deviant ideas about women.

BTW, the Haven's study was in the UK. Some of the others are international - lots more research from the US, for example, but still quite relevant. If I had the time, I could provide more examples, but perhaps someone else can step in and do this.

It was about 1993 when I first read a survey conducted in Islington that showed the high proportion of teenage boys who believed it was acceptable to hit a partner or force her to have sex in some circumstances. There's been plenty similar studies since then.

Rape is simply (I don't use the word 'simply' to downplay the act) having sex with somebody against their will.

The problem is that I think some men (and women, I'm afraid to say) do not see this.
They have opinions on what is 'acceptable' rape and what is 'unacceptable' rape.

'Acceptable' rape= could be a man and woman agreeing to go to bed together and he has sex with the woman even though she refused him.
'What did she expect?' Would be the attitude.

Then there is 'unacceptable' rape- the sort that happens in a dark alley with a woman having a knife to her throat, or the abuse of a child.

The vast majority of people would -RIGHTLY, of course- think the latter to be unacceptable while thinking the former to be somehow OK.

Attitudes need to change so that BOTH are unacceptable.

I still believe that a properly decent man would actively want a partner's consent to have sex, and this is why I think only those predisposed to rape would rape while those brought up to respect women would would not even if they could. In fact, I know this to be true of many men- thank goodness, but, in the climate in which we live, it is easy for a man predisposed to get away with raping a woman he is in bed with her because the attitude will be 'well, what did she expect, leading him on like that'.
Attitudes need to change, I think. What does it matter what a woman who has been raped wore during the attack or where she was? It's all wrong.

Perhaps the problem here is that referring to criminology studies of convicted rapists and believing that they represent the mindsets of all rapists is too narrow. It is estimated that 40% of rape victims never tell anyone about their crime and a pitifully small number of convictions result from reporting of rape, so studying those rapists in prison (which is where most of those studies take place) only gives a part of the picture. So many rapists are never revealed to anyone (except their victims) and so are never studied.

Good post wamster. I agree.

Aye, yes I think that is true as well.

No I said "If you're doing forensic psychology then presumably you are studying people who have been caught" and you didn't say different. I did not state categorically what you have been studying, how would I know?

Fair enough then SQ. But no, it doesn't only study those who have been caught. It is concerned with criminal profiling. However having said that, how could you study those who have not been caught? I guess what they do is fit together a profile of a rapist - either a violent stranger one or a domestic one (by that I mean someone who violates their partner) and compare traits.

No doubt they will be doing the same for those who rape drunken women or who think it's ok to carry on after she has said no. It is a science concerned with mapping out the psyche of a criminal.

But you have to know they are criminals to profile them.

With the number of rapes unreported that are - I don't see how they can do that.

Serial stranger rapists I'm sure have traits in common and share them with other extremely violent criminals.
Acquaintance rapists without "form" for anything - the "nice normal" ones who don't beat their wives or whatever - no-one knows who they are. And they would not self-describe as rapists. So how can you ever profile them?

I can see you too! (waves at Amor) and also want to give the thumbs up to Prolesworth's post.