What is this?

[trailing]

I've name changed for this.

I live in an Asian country where prostitution and "massage" parlous that offer a "happy ending" (vile phrase) are incredibly common. The street I used to live on had two or three massage parlous or "hairdressing" salons (whore houses) and I was in a smart part of town. The prostitutes are mostly picked up in bars. It is the same in most of the large cities near where I live to the point that I can't name a city in Asia where this isn't common.

On Tuesday I discovered that almost every man I know uses these massage places and have the "happy ending." By every man I do mean every man in my social circle. Not just friends but friends of friends and people I've met a few times down the pub. I'm sure there are some who don't but they are a minority.

If this wasn't sad enough I'm told that the men (and I use the word loosely because I don't have enough respect for any of these scumbags to call them men) have favourite girls and discuss them when the men get together. Yep, this isn't some dirty little secret, something that pervy men do but don't want anyone to know. No, this is out and proud... except...

I'm the only wife who knows. So they clearly know how fucking disgusting and revolting it is and that their wives would geld them if they knew about this.

These men have girlfriends, wives, fiancees, pregnant partners, babies at home, toddlers, children, teens and adult children.

Apart from the issues that my H and I are now going through I feel nothing but disgust and horror at what these men are doing not only to their families but also to the poor girls who work in these massage places. I'm sick and angry and hurt and just fucking beyond it. Yes, by every man I know I do mean every man I know including the one who promised to love me forsaking all others. :(

Firstly how do I deal with all the other men? Should I just smile and pretend I don't know they use other women for their selfish pleasure?

Secondly why do they do this? Because they can? Because they're all tosspot wankers?

A friend of mine said a few years ago that she didn't know one single relationship in this place that didn't involve infidelity. She was right. :(

I'm off to feed DD and get her ready for bed.

Overton window is exactly it - I couldn't remember what it was called.

Hope your DD sleeps well tonight. God you must feel so utterly, utterly betrayed. It must feel like the foundations of your world have been stripped away :(

Good idea re talking to some of your friends before you go - I suspect that if you tell a few, they will tell others. I also wonder as Sybil says if some of them know or at least suspect but have no idea how to deal with it. Or if they have convinced themselves that their husband/partner is a decent man and so wouldn't participate.

I am going to be offline now for the rest of the weekend but I will be thinking of you. Sending you love and strength to get you through it xx

Oh trailing. I'm so, so sorry you're having to go through this.

Only you can decide what you're going to do, but I just wanted to let you know that if you're a UK citizen, even if you've been out of the country for years you will be eligible for universal and income-based benefits as soon as you take up residence back in the UK (e.g. Child Benefit, JSA, Income Support. Tax credits may take longer to sort out because they always work on the previous year's income, but you would still get them eventually). If you want to leave him and return to the UK, you won't find yourself penniless.

If you decide to try to work things through with your H, I think it is vital he shows he is truly sorry for what he's done, rather than just saying it. To that end, it would probably benefit him to educated himself about the effects of the industry on the poor women that are caught up in it, and possibly for him to make reparations, such as donations or some unpaid work for charities that help these women. He really needs to feel the RL impact of his behaviour, and want to do something to make up for it, otherwise I fear your respect for him will be permanently damaged and your marriage doomed to failure anyway. Loss of respect nearly always results in the death of a marriage IME, even if there is initially still a fair amount of love left.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck with it. I'll be thinking of you.

Your situation sounds awful and I hope you don't feel that if your marriage is not salvagable, that you are pinned into it because there are no alternatives. There are always alternatives.

It sounds as though it's a case of "when in Rome," or in this case, when in the place you are living in where sexual exploitation of vulnerable, impoverished women and abuse of children is considered as "normal" as buying an ice cream. It's impossible to know whether other wives are aware of what their husbands or doing, whether they do and feel no option but to tolerate it or be homeless, penniless and stateless, or what.

It just brought to mind an upsetting story told to me by a woman on another message board I used to frequent. Her 12 year old daughter had just disclosed that she'd been seriously sexually assaulted - over a period of several months, but the father of her best friend. This man made regular trips to Thailand on business and was very open about the fact that he procured sexual services from women and girls there. His wife for some reason tolerated it as his "little treat" because he worked very hard and the girls didn't mean anything to him.

The problem is that he seem to have "normalised" the idea that there is nothing wrong with having sex with 12 year old girls. It was only a few steps from sex with nameless, faceless Thai girls in brothels to forcing himself on his young daughter's friend.

The person who told me the story said her daughter strongly suspected that her best friend (the businessman's daughter) had also been subject to sexual abuse from her dad for many years.

It just reminded me how easy it can be to rationalise that something is "acceptable" in one context and then shift that "acceptableness" into another context as well. Perhaps the wives of men using these "services" should be concerned about the safety of their own children.

Having recently been in a big online argument where a sex worker swore that most sex workers weren't exploited, that sex work is like any other job and there should be no stigma, blah, blah... I wish she could read this thread because this is the end result of what she was asking for and it sounds anything but healthy or positive.

Trailing - I'm so sorry to hear what happened, you must be absolutely devastated. It is disgusting that your husband has chosen to piss all over your marriage like this.

This is a cultural 'norm' that is prevalent among expat Western workers, especially in Asia and the Middle East. It's absolutely disgusting as most of the men involved are good family men on the surface but with company jobs where this kind of behaviour is considered almost part of the job.

I think the expat culture in these places is quite poisonous and can very quickly contaminate even the most decent people. A lot of people go for these expat postings for the money and then wind up with broken marriages or health problems from the sick culture that prevails. It's not worth it so I think your plan of looking for jobs elsewhere is a good one, trailing.

If its any consolation, this issue happened to my DH's aunt when her family was posted abroad with her husband's job (oil industry, which is a big employer in my DH's part of Scotland). She decided to move her family back home as a result and their marriage was on the brink. THey did manage to repair things once they got back home and into a more normal environment, however, and they're still married now 20 years later. So I think a marriage can recover from this if both parties want to work at it but you need to get out of that toxic expat environment.

Gosh what a horribly upsetting situation to be in. I am so angry for you and all the other women concerned.

I think the advice about action on your DH's part is good. If you decide that you can stay with him, you are going to need him to educate himself as to what he has participated in, and be sure that his 'sorry' comes from a place of someone who understands exactly what they have done.

I'm another one who thinks the other women need to know, but agree that you and your DH will make yourselves targets for a lot of animosity if you do this. Knowing that you have done nothing wrong will probably be of little comfort if your social group turns on you. I don't think it is your responsibility to let these women know - I think it is your DH's. If he is really sorry and really cares then he should do something to make this stop.

And big big hugs for you - do you have anyone close to you who can look after you a bit whilst you figure this sorry mess out?

Oh and although I get the normalization/when in Rome thing, I think it is a pathetic excuse for acting so misogynistic. I think more of men than to think that their brains fall out and they are unable to behave with humanity, just because others around them are doing so. We only really tend to think that this sort of excuse holds (for grown ups) when it comes to sexual exploitation of women I notice.

I'm so very, very sorry to hear this trailing - I don't have much useful to add but ... if there is anything I can do. .

No you don't have a good marriage - certainly not at the moment - you might have a man who has just allowed himself to become a shitbag as he issurrounded by them, who might be able to redeem himself as long as you get the hell out of there and he does a LOT of thinking and changing as a person.

Yes you will be eligible for benefits. Yes you could come home with your daughter and start again - not easy AT ALL, but a million times better than wasting your one and only life living in that slime pit with that bunch of stomach churners.

I would come back, I would get out of there ASAP. Give your so-called H the chance to follow you - whether he does or not will tell you all you need to know. You need to change this situation. It's poison.

I don't have anything useful to say, but I just wanted to express my sympathy trailing. I'm so sorry you have to go through this.

trailing - I've been thinking about this all morning. I think if I were you I probably would tell your closer friends. Well tbh I would try and get your husband to tell them but I realise that it would be a cold day in hell before that happened! Would you want to know if you were them (putting aside the devastation you must be feeling at the moment at least you the ability to take some kind of control of the situation)?

A couple of things really stand out for me:

The vulnerable position that you and your friends are in and the fact that has been exploited by your partners.

The misogyny shown by these men. This isn't an affair style problem this is a problem with how they view women especially vulnerable women - both their partners, who are dependent on them and the prostitutes who they have been sleeping with - who are exploited victims too. They certainly don't care about their well-being or even if they wanted to have sex with them.

To go forward I would really try and get some RL support going and trying to take control. You will at least be able to make a decision from a more powerful position.

Good luck and so sorry for your situation xx

How awful - I have been thinking about this and it has raised a whole load of horrible memories. My XP simply didn't see that what he was doing was so bad. As far as I know he is still back and forth to Thailand now, still up to his old tricks. I think the power that this kind of behaviour holds is addictive for some men.

I would be very tempted to tell all the women, however god knows how that would pan out. As the wives are in such a vulnerable position they may well choose (or have chosen) to turn a blind eye, and would resent you for bringing it out into the open. I would be very wary of doing so, it's bad enough that this has happened to you in a foreign country, unable to work to support yourself with a young baby. I can't imagine how awful it would feel if your friends and support network shunned you for being open about this horrible, sordid behaviour.

So sorry for the situiation you have been put in trailing.

Another shot of sympathy from me too. And a furtive hug too. It's bad enough being miles away from family and friends when something shit happens, but even worse when it the person you thought as an ally being the shit. As someone who also is in foreign parts I totally get it.
My only advice is to think about you and DD and what you can do what's best for you. It's not up to you to make amends for your H nor tie yourself in knots trying to accommodate him. If he's sorry he needs to be the doing the accomodating (and the telling if telling there is to do).
Do you have supportive friends or family at home? Can you avail on them to help? If you are isolated there; your best bet is to try and go somewhere you ate not so alone. Its a bit drastic, but being alone only compounds how helpless or powerless you feel.
I always plan for the worst and when pregnant I devised an exit strategy for me and the DC in case of emergency. It involved going back to the UK and dossing at my sisters. I don"t think it is a good solution, but it made me realise that I would cope somehow.
You will cope too. But do try and put yourself in a situation where it might be more straightforward to do this.
.

It sounds like where I live, Trailing, which is Shanghai. I can think of five parlours in my direct vicinity right now, and every guy I know has "partaken", even my boyfriend. He justified the one time he had a happy ending by saying that it was merely a part of the physical massage and not sexual. Apparently.

Karaoke lounges make me sick, especially the way women are paraded. Prostitution makes up a huge part of China's economy, and it's insidious. It's incredibly common for regular Chinese men to visit prostitutes.

I'm still here and taking in everything that's been said. I'm going to Australia tomorrow. Not sure when I'll get to post again but I'll try to come back and up date. Thank you whoever said I'd get benefits in the UK. It's great knowing I'd have more options. I don't really have any close friends in the UK any more. I've been away too long. Just my (separated) parents who I have a good relationship with but not amazing.

Yes I feel the other women need to be told. Not my priority now but it's something that will need to happen.

Hengshan I'm in the same country as you. I know this will out me but

I really hope everything works out Ok trailing. I think it is great that you are getting out of there for the time being. I am so sorry for you having to deal with something like this.

trailing :(

Do you have friends and family or other support in Aus? Please take care.

an ex of mine that i met when we were both living in the middle east, lived with for a while in a couple of european countries and obviously thought i knew very well as a lovely, sensitive, kind, intelligent ra ra ra man moved to thailand soon after i broke up with him.

i went to visit him a couple of years later whilst touring round thailand myself. i barely recognised him. he was selfish and pretty rude and his ego seemed to have gone into overdrive. he had a 'girlfriend'. she cleaned cooked, fawned, giggled and clearly did whatever he wanted in return for a roof over her head and status among her peers and a nice lifestyle.

we went out and he'd get her to sit in the back and me (his ex girlfriend to sit in the front with him and talk exclusively to me for the evening. she would endlessly smile and simper, i'd try to include her in conversation but in the end gave up.

i had it out with him in the end telling him how much he'd changed and saying i thought he treated her very badly and was behaving like a saddo sicko expat using her. he claimed i was being biased because she was thai and young and imagining things. i asked him whether when we were together he'd ever have dreamed of putting me in the back of the car whilst chatting to his ex in the front, whether he'd have had me cooking and cleaning at home and ready to jump on his cock giggling when he returned 24hrs later. obviously not. i watched it sink in on his face - how it wasn't obvious who knows - normalisation and god knows what he'd been up to as normal expat in thailand behaviour in the intervening years.

it's a place that obviously can have a hideous effect on men. they do it because they can. sex with young beautiful girls who ask nothing in terms of respect just material gain - be that the pay for prostitution or the status and lifestyle of being a 'girlfriend'. disclaimer - i know some amazing thai women who this would not refect AT ALL however there are a lot of girls and women in poverty for whom this is the 'answer'.

i think the fact he told you is a good sign, the fact he did finally feel shame and self disgust enough to tell you what he'd been up to. not good enough though obviously and he has behaved awfully.

it's obviously up to you how to proceed and you do not have to hurry.

i'm so sorry - hope my anecdote wasn't too random - just mean that i have seen a 'very good man' turned into a selfish, misogynistic (to the women there) man. actually he also insulted me indirectely about having put weight on - he had become very acclimatised to pubescent bodies.

saf.

I know exactly what you mean. Living like that completely alters some (not all) men. My ex's business partner was married with children living in the UK, he had a girlfriend who he supported (she was Cambodian living in Bangkok). He lived in Thailand 6 months of the year - basically two weeks there, two weeks back, similar to my ex's work pattern. Then I found out that my X was doing the same (albeit with a less formalised arrangement). he wasn'y the nicest bloke in the world anyway, but it completely changed him into a boorish, abusive nightmare.

I worked with someone last year who very blatantly went on his own to Thailand a couple of times a year for shag hols. It was quite blatantly alluded to, he saw no shame. I thought he was utterly appalling.

I was very surprised and saddened to witness the prostitution in China, in Shanghai , Xian and Beijing , it wasn't immediately obvious ( apart from the 15+ calling cards that were pushed under our hotel room door on our first night in Beijing , all with pictures of very young looking women ) we had complained about our room and had been given another on the executive floor, none of our group on the tourist floors had the cards - then DH was offered services on the street in Shanghai , as were all the men in our tour group, one of whom was travelling alone and was constantly hassled in Shanghai bars just one street back from the Bund ( the main tourist area) and in Xian, a stone's throw from the city wall, there was a "karaoke" bar, a few of our tour group went in and were ushered upstairs very quickly to "see the view", downstairs there were booths full of business men being entertained by young women who kept going upstairs and downing huge amounts of alchohol, presumably to help them perform the men in the bar were obviously ashamed and tried their best to hide what was going on from the (western) women.

Prostitution is supposedly illegal in China.

Trailing, I hope you find the strength and support you need to get through this, it's a truly awful situation that he has dropped you into, what the hell is wrong with the men who do this?

And other places too....;)

i'm in the uk!

That's dreadful :(
Sad for you.

If I found myself in your position, I can't imagine not telling at least some of the other women, even if it was just the ones I knew best, because once a few of them know, it will soon spread further. But I'm not going to presume to give advice / tell you what to do, because I'm not in your position, and I've no experience of what life in that country is like actually.

Wishing you all the best, and some (((hugs))).