The departure of dittany

[Pan]

I only know that she has left, and in her post she didn't say much as to why, though some people can speculate and imagine why.

Quite a few days ago (last weekend I think) there were threads that pinpointed the lack of consideration that MNHQ has toward the sort of trolls that infest the FS section from time to time - different in nature and purpose to your average troll that infects MN from time to time.

It may well be that d. is in contact with regular posters whom she trusts. I don't know.

What I do know is that d. was a fabulous source of invigoration and illumination to a lot of posters, myself included, though we didn't always agree with her.

I would like a review from MNHQ of their current "talk guidlines" policy, in order that the FS is provided with a consideration that recognises the particular vulnerability that it experiences.

D. left for her own reasons - but this presents itself as a sort of 'test case' for MN to respond sensitively.

Would anyone agree and post here in support of this?

FWIW, I have emailed MNHQ inviting them to review their policy on trolls re the FS section.

Iam sure this has been done previously, but it seemed doing it again in view of recent trolling behaviour may make a difference. Who knows.

What a shame!

Dittany pretty much embodied the MN feminism section in my eyes for quite some time. I have not always agreed with absolutely everything of what she has had to say - but I always thought that she was basically right about a lot of stuff and was generally made of awesome.

If MRAs are really to blame for her flouncing that's horrible. I usually lurk on the feminism board but I've noticed this trend. FWIW some of the baiting and deliberate trolling that goes on here is completely disgusting IMHO. I also happen to think that MNHQ ought to take some form of action about it. There is a very distinct difference between freedom of speech - which I completely support, even for offensive speech - and causing deliberate disturbance in order to distract and therefore interfere with the freedom of speech of others.

Dittany didn't make too many friends and now she's stamped off because she hasn't got her own way?

Don't let the door and all that,

don't get on the fem board much then, frumpy? is it nice in that bubble of yours?

I disagreed with almost everything dittany said -I can't deny it- some of her views were incomprehensible to me BUT sometimes humanity comes before all these things and if she is really upset, I don't like the thought of that.
If she really believes in all her views, she should stay and defend them.
I don't see how quitting is a good thing if people have full faith in their views. All the 'successful' feminists don't quit. Well, successful people at anything do not quit full stop. But I don't know what she does away from here- she could be getting involved in all sorts of brave feminist stuff so I could just be talking rubbish as this is just a 'minor' part of her feminism that she has had enough of.

This is just how I see it. Obviously, it's up to her.

One thing, though, pointing out that views are in a person's views are incomprehensible is NOT trolling. Although, I personally would never 'out' anybody as a troll, a good indicator (although by no means proof) for me is the simple question- do they post on other topics on mn? If so, it seems that they're NOT just here to wind people up.

The point if this thread isn't a discusson whether one disagrees with dittany or not.

The wider issue is the consideration of how MNHQ manage the particular behaviour of trolls in the FS - and it's pretty clear that the current Talk Guidelines are pretty ineffectual in doing that. But so far it seems MNHQ are unconcerned by this.

I hope such guidlines/rules do change. Many trolls must be banished

Oh, sorry, Pan, but 'fraid there's not much mn can do about that one.

Wamster - I disagree there - there's lots of choices of actions MNHQ have here.

Must be off to work. See you later.

I'm sad that Dittany has chosen to leave. I think she talked a lot of sense and tbh often when people were a bit ticked off by her "attitude" it did seem to generally be out of a sense that she had engaged on the same subject time and time again and didn't have endless supplies of patience.

So... Would it be really daft to suggest that one of the things that might help would be not a change to 'Talk Guidelines' but sticky threads at the top of each topic? These are used a lot in other forums to advantage - noobs can be gently steered towards them, they can be used to provide specific guidelines for that particular topic etc?

And it means regular posters wouldn't have that wearying sense of having to constantly explain / defend the same position over and over again. As well as being useful for lurkers / noobs who perhaps don't want to engage in a debate right at that moment but ARE genuinely interested in what goes on in the topic.

yes someone suggested a sort of 'health warning' a la the one in AIBU - which seemed a way forward.

I honestly think it's a bit presumptuous for people to suggest that MN dedicates a mod simply to the Fem forum. You do know that these people have to be paid, right?

How about this for a solution:
MN fem section continues as normal
Reg posters set up a separate site called 'FeMNistas' with a talkboard, 10-15 regs make themselves moderators/administrators on there
Whenever the regs feel a thread on MN is getting derailed/trolled/triggering, they can say 'we're taking this over to FeMNistas' and give a link
Those who wish can then continue to discuss on the separate board, which will have a much more muscular policy wrt deletions and banning
Those who don't have a problem with MNHQ's moderation can continue to discuss on MN

??

Celestina - sorry, don't know who made that suggestion but I don't agree. I think MN just needs proper modding all over. This isn't just an issue with the Feminism board, it's with SN too. Trolls (IMO) tend just to want to hurt and annoy. They might post anywhere. This time they happen to be trolls who want to post in Feminism. But HQ needs to sort out trolls on the boards in general.

I don't see the point of going away from a huge board like this, which has a lot of traffic and a lot of lurkers. I like MN. I lke the community, not just the feminism regulars. And I like it when people who're not feminists or not feminist regulars want to talk about the same topics.

What would you want us to do, if we all went, and people came on here to talk about rape, or DV, or other issues that come up regularly? The trolls will tell them rape is very funny, or child abuse is actually what children like, or women are to blame for their own situations. I think it'd be really sad if that was what happened and no-one was here to challenge it. A closed forum for feminisms is a different sort of thing.

i've name changed for this. I remember Dittany accusing some men on here of being potential rapists because they had the audacity to argue with her.

I respect her strong opinions on feminism, and also the support she has given to people. But this is a public forum, and you have to stand by your words, and expect people to disagree with you.

I will miss dittany.

Everything that Pan has said is true. I hope MNHQ deal with this properly. They are intelligent people who should be capable of seeing the subtle (and often not-so-subtle) ways in which the FS has been undermined lately and how certain posters have been targetted. Good post Pan. Can't really add anything to it.

I have been posting less and less on here lately simply because of the derailment. Its very off-putting. And if it's had that effect on me - someone who hasn't actively been targetted - then I'm not remotely surprised dittany has had enough.

Pan- who I believe to be male- telling the mn team (who I believe to be largely female) how to run their site. Hmm, that smacks of male entitlement to me.

Fair enough that you don't like the idea LRD, but I think that if you put this one to the vote across all MN members, you'd find that most people really object to the idea of rigorously deleting anything that could cause offence to any special interest group, or banning people because you get a feeling that they might be a troll but don't have any real evidence.

Your point about would happen re rape, abuse threads etc, I don't know whether you've been on MN long, but we used to deal with those things just fine before the Fem section existed. MN is full of women ready to speak up for other women; you don't have to be a rad fem to do that.

Anyway, my suggestion is not that all the regs leave. It's that the regs set up their own parallel board, which they can moderate as they please. If this happened I imagine most of the regs would post on both.

Pan suggested it, he didn't demand it. He's trying to help uus improve things, Wamster.

Doesn't smack of male entitlement to me.

Would site management consider volunteer moderators, at least for some sections of the site like this one? They would need to be visible and probably would be in for megatons of shit (because whatever they do, they'd always be wrong in the eyes of some - that's just how it goes.) The would only need to have the ability to perhaps "suspend" posts that otherwise might stand until site management got a chance to look at these, or perhaps could have a "hotline" to site management to get such posts looked at.

I know it's virtually impossible to eradicate "derailing" trolling altogether. This is an ongoing problem on another site I sometimes visit. Folks who were banned 2 or 3 years ago still create new profiles and come back to spew venom from time to time. Doesn't usually take long to spot them and they get booted again, but that site only has maybe 100 active contributors, so makes them easier to spot. They still cause alot of grief.

Apart from more robust moderation, I don't know what the answer is.

Disappointed that many have seen this thread fit for putting the boot into members who left because they felt pushed out and/or found it impossible to engage here because they were being constantly tackled, whatever they contributed.

Oh it does to me, DontCallMeFrothyDragon, very much so. Those chicks at mn need a man to tell them where they're going wrong, don't they?

Wow Celestina, great idea. Make the folks who are being tackled for expressing a different perspective leave instead of challenging the people who are having a go at them. Lovely.

Wamster, a man, woman, transgender person can advocate on behalf of other human beings. That doesn't have anything to do with privilege or entitlement. Your post imho is just being provocative.

Wamster, he's making a suggestion. It's something we've all been trying to thiink of recently. Please stop shit stirring. Remember, we're not all anti-men here.

Celestina - I didn't suggest they deleted things offensive 'to a special interest group'. They're not those thigns (though I know the SN community do fight for deletions of words offensive to them, and that's IMO quite right, and we do get racially offensive words deleted). What I would like to see deleted are posts that condone or encouraged violence against women - which is criminal. I don't see how that's 'special interest', and as you say, could come up anywhere on the board. Relationships, for one place.

I don't think there's no evidence about these trolls. Daftpunk was banned because she was repeatedly racist and disablist. Soon I hope some of these trolls, who repeatedly post condoning rape and abuse of women and girls, will also be banned.

I agree it is harder to know what to do about persistent derailing, because it looks so normal at first glance. But it's not, really.