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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Honour killing"

366 replies

Greythorne · 07/09/2011 19:27

Even with quotation marks, I really loathe the use of "honour killing".

Talk about misuse of the word "honour"

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/sep/07/shafilea-parents-arrested-suspected-honour-killing

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 08/09/2011 14:47

Shall I name change to SelfDeclaredRadicalFeminist?

Grin
Beachcomber · 08/09/2011 14:51

I did think it was pretty relevant saying as how it was from a website called "Stop Honour Killings!" and all.

BobBanana · 08/09/2011 14:52

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ShirleyKnotFrotGrot · 08/09/2011 14:54

Either that or you could start saying things more clearly?

Just a thought.

BobBanana · 08/09/2011 15:08

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Wamster · 08/09/2011 15:14

Yes, Hullygully, that is wholly accurate. Well, in my view, anyway; but it's a bit of a mouthful to use that when reporting stories.
If 'so-called' before the words 'honour killings' was used by all the press, then it would be challenging the notion that these killings were in any way shape or form 'honourable'.
Instead of people thinking, 'oh it's an honour killing so it is somehow OK, people would perhaps pick up on the 'so-called' bit and challenge the notion that it had anything to do with honour.

If anybody who believed in these 'honour' killings then complained, it would just be refuted with 'sorry, but our journalist feels that these killings do not, in any way, chime with his/her notions of honourability'. Which is totally reasonable and fair.

Only words at the end of the day, I suppose, but just a few thoughts.

JosephineB · 08/09/2011 15:25

Most women's organisations already write so-called honour or write it as as 'honour' killings - just need to get the media to catch up!

MitchiestInge · 08/09/2011 15:36

it's important to give those killings a name that betrays their motivation though, as we do with hate crime - not in a Napoleonic Code defensive (crimes of passion) way of course

not that can think of a better name myself

GothAnneGeddes · 08/09/2011 15:50

Agree with Mitchiest Inge.

I quoted Southall Black Sisters, because they deal with honour based crimes on every level and I respect that they know far more about this then me.

The other issue is this. There have been several cases where women went to the police, told them she feared her family were going to kill her for reasons of supposed 'honour', they didn't believe her and she was subsequently murdered (yes, I know this has happened in DV cases too). By using the term 'honour based crime, you're making it clear why this happened and that it does happen.

Wamster · 08/09/2011 15:54

Yes, I agree with that. It is telling the reader about the motivation behind the murder i.e. honour plus it is pointing out the obvious fact that it is a crime, too. It is also brief and not a mouthful to say each time. Just the right phrase to use.

GothAnneGeddes · 08/09/2011 15:58

Also, in terms of recording, if we have an idea of the scale of the problem of honour killings in UK, tackling this problem with the appropriate organisations can be properly funded.

QuitePrettyInPink · 08/09/2011 16:15

I think "so-called honour killings" is clear in a way "honour killings" is not.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 08/09/2011 16:15

I suppose one positive aspect of using the phrase 'honour killing' is that many people will find the word 'honour' develops nasty associations for them. And that would be a good thing, because it is absolutely true, as has been said, that no system of honour has ever been anything other than oppressive of women.

Incidentally, this is making me think about the term virtue, which comes from the same word as 'man' and pretty much implies that all honourable, good, moral qualities are inherently masculine. I know it'd be naive to pretend culture isn't a huge factor in discussing these murders, but I don't think any culture is immune to misogynistic constructions of 'honour'.

MitchiestInge · 08/09/2011 16:15

I think that's the point isn't it? To identify and protect the people who are most at risk - not, as someone suggested earlier, as a ranking exercise in which some sorts of murder are worse than others or attempt to differentiate in some other way but because some groups are more (hate the v word at the moment) than others.

QuitePrettyInPink · 08/09/2011 16:54

Sorry, genuine query, why must honour or honourable be deplored?

I can think of tonnes of examples of people behaving "honourably" which would not be opressive to women.

Keeping your word is an honourable thing to do.
I once agreed to shareva flat with a friend, then got the offer of a better flatshare with someone else, hut stuck with the originak deal. My friend thanked me and said I had done the honourable thing.

What am I missing?

GothAnneGeddes · 08/09/2011 17:04

The so-called bit seems a bit obvious. The key word is killing. Killing is wrong we shouldn't have to quantify it.

Beachcomber · 08/09/2011 17:14

You aren't missing anything QuitePrettyInPink. The examples that you give are fine. They aren't oppressive.

Honour has different meanings and uses. www.thefreedictionary.com/honour

I think what we are talking about in terms of honour killings is 'family honour'. The vessel for family honour is women and their virtue, obedience and submissiveness to the patriarch of the family.

Does that make sense?

Beachcomber · 08/09/2011 18:47

An interesting report on honour killings in Pakistan (by Amnesty International).

"The victims range from pre-pubescent girls to
grandmothers. They are usually killed on the mere
allegation of having entered ?illicit? sexual
relationships. They are never given an opportunity
to give their version of the allegation as there is no
point in doing so -- the allegation alone is enough to
defile a man?s honour and therefore enough to
justify the killing of the woman."

I know we all know this but the complete lack of value placed on women's life is so chilling.

And this bit (for Hully) talk about a backlash Sad Angry.

For the most part, women bear traditional male control over
every aspect of their bodies, speech and behaviour
with stoicism, as part of their fate, but exposure to
media, the work of women?s groups and a greater
degree of mobility have seen the beginnings of
women?s rights awareness seep into the secluded
world of women. But if women begin to assert
their rights, however tentatively, the response is
harsh and immediate: the curve of honour killings
has risen parallel to the rise in awareness of rights.

alemci · 08/09/2011 19:05

It is awful and I really feel for the girls. It also upsets me that this happens in GB where we are meant to be living in the 21st century.

Beachcomber · 08/09/2011 19:09

From the same link;

"Two main factors contribute to violence against
women: women?s commodification and
conceptions of honour. The concept of women as
a commodity, not human beings endowed with
dignity and rights equal to those of men, is deeply
rooted in tribal culture. Dr Tahira Shahid Khan of
Shirkatgah, a woman?s resource centre worker,
explains: ?Women are considered the property of
the males in their family irrespective of their class,
ethnic or religious group. The owner of the
property has the right to decide its fate. The
concept of ownership has turned women into a
commodity which can be exchanged, bought and
sold...?"

BobBanana · 08/09/2011 19:15

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AyeBelieveInTheHumanityOfMen · 08/09/2011 19:56

The killing of women by men they know is always about ownership, objectification and entitlement. Is this a revelation to some on here?

startAfire · 09/09/2011 08:13

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Beachcomber · 09/09/2011 08:26

Exactly SAF.

Some people do get mixed up in their heads between 'respecting cultural differences' and tolerating misogyny.

I thought the following was helpful from the AI report on Pakistan;

"Government of Pakistan has taken no measures to
end honour killings and to hold perpetrators to
account. It has failed to train police and judges to
be gender neutral and to amend discriminatory
laws. It has ignored Article 5 of the Convention on
the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination
against Women, which it ratified in 1996, which
obliges states to ?modify the social and cultural
patterns of conduct of men and women? to
eliminate prejudice and discriminatory traditions.

Some apologists claim that traditional practices as
genuine manifestations of a community?s culture
may not be subjected to scrutiny from the
perspective of rights contained in the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights. Against this, the
1993 World Conference on Human Rights in the
Vienna Declaration and Programme of Action
stated: ?All human rights are universal, indivisible
and interdependent and interrelated? and asserted
the duty of states ?to promote all human rights and
fundamental freedoms?. The United Nations
General Assembly in 1993 adopted the Declaration
on the Elimination of Violence against Women
which urges states not to ?invoke custom, tradition
or religious consideration to avoid their obligation?
to eliminate discriminatory treatment of women.

While recognizing the importance of cultural
diversity, Amnesty International stands resolutely
in defence of the universality of human rights,
particularly the most fundamental rights to life and
freedom from torture and ill-treatment. The role of
the state is to ensure the full protection of these
rights, where necessary mediating ?tradition?
through education and the law."

JosephineB · 09/09/2011 08:34

Former Home Office Minister Mike O'Brien put it best when he said Multicultural sensitivity is no excuse for moral blindness ?

For me, seeing issues through a human rights lens helps to make it clearer as to whenit is OK to critique culture.

It's also worth bearing in mind that 'culture' is rarely homogenous: for example, both members of the EDL and I are part of 'British culture' but I assure you we have little in common!