"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

[HerBeX]

This caught my eye on another thread, but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it was interesting in the context of marriages, relationships etc.

My immediate response was "isn't it"?

On one level, of course it isn't, it's an overall human issue (but that's true of lots of feminist issues too).

But then I thought, well, there's this whole hetero-normative monogamy propaganda out there, women are constantly being told that the way to gain happiness is to bag a man and live with him until one of you dies and yet nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce, usually instigated by women, because clearly that hasn't made them happy - or maybe it made them happy for a while but no longer does?

Mumsnet is full of threads with unhappy women asking why they are unhappy and so far as I can see, it's generally bcause their DP's have an enormous sense of entitlement which neither partner has analysed or realised is there and so therefore can never be effectively addressed. And because men and women appear to expect very different things from marriage and partnership. And surely feminism arose from the big enlightenment question of how can people be happy. Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual.

All of which are feminist issues and possibly interesting enough to kick a few thoughts around?

Coaching is not teaching - a coach does not come with a pre-packaged idea of the development the coachee is going to undergo.

Sorry, my fault about the tangent too SQ. I'll shut up.

Although, sorry, not before saying that, Bonsoir, if you think that is what a teacher does you have come across some shitty teachers.

Thanks for the link HerBeX. Am going off to read now :)

I am not claiming that parents (or adults) view their children's achievements as their own, so please do not misquote me on that.

I do, however, think it is utterly tragic and downright immoral not to delight in the transmission of human knowledge.

Also a strange view of the world that all people in their 40s are professionals employed in a senior management capacity.

What about someone who retrains? They'll be a bit shit on the social worker course if they don't believe in being taught

GAH I can't help myself sorry LRD

Sorry Lenin, it's way back in the thread about why single mothers are hated. Page 2 I believe.

No, it was me too Sardine.

I expect we all find it tempting to generalize from our own experiences. Because of what I do day to day, I feel strongly about teaching and learning. I think this is an issue closely related to feminism and happiness. Broadly, education is something that is seen as a mother's responsibility, isn't it? And yet, if you as a mother have to spend much of your time keeping up-to-date with the current trends in primary education, you lose time for yourself. I can see some people love this and enjoy passing on basic knowledge, but not everyone does, and it isn't terribly practical, if you already know your times tables, to spend time learning the latest fashionable way to teach them to your child.

I don't think that education is seen as a mother's responsibility. When mothers choose to SAH and have WOHP, it tends to fall to mothers to follow their children's education more closely than their fathers, by virtue of the division of labour that having one SAHP and one SOHP almost by definition entails.

But in families where both parents do equivalent jobs, I think I see just as many fathers involved in their children's education as mothers. Certainly in our family DP does 100% of the DSSs' education - their mother doesn't bother with it at all - not unusual IME.

All the parent's evenings I've been to, about 3/4 of the parents have been women.

And before a child attends nursery or school, it's mainly women who are SAHPs.

And it's mostly women who are the contact point for the school in the event of sickness, behaviour problems, etc.

So I do think education is considered a woman's responsibility.

How do we think that relates to the pursuit of happiness?

Sorry I wasn't clear - it's mainly women who are SAHPS and therefore they are doing the education of their children at that point in time

(People usually define education as the bit that happens once kids hit school age, but children are being educated by their carers from the time they come out of the womb IMO)

I think it relates to persuit of happiness because it's one of those very time-consuming things that women are expected to do, even though the benefit to the woman herself is tiny (except in the cases which I mentioned earlier, where people who've missed schooling become parents and then find the motivation to catch up on what they've missed).

I think an awful lot of what is meant to make women happy - and especially education of children - is based in quite a misogynistic view of women, that sees them as conduits. That suggests women don't really have substance of their own - they're just there to pass on learning, or nutrition, or whatever. IMO, this is why people so often think women who want to be happy are being selfish.

I also think the relationship between education and happiness is a huge feminist issue because women are - overall, in the world - less likely than men to be educated formally and more likely to be poor. Education isn't a silver bullet but it is important in changing the reality of women's lives.

And I think if you leave women to themselves, they will form networks and they will educate each other - they will share experiences and they will learn all sorts of things that are not routinely taught or discussed: the realities of women's bodies, pregnancy, menopause, etc. The more women know about these things, the more likely we are to feel in control and the more likely we are to be able to reach for help. And all of this contributes to happiness. These networks may not be recognized as a formal or important forum for 'education', which is why women's spaces and women's voices are crucial.

My experience of happiness as a SAHM is that everyone, especially men, expect me to be insanely happy and fulfilled. After all, I don't work, I don't do housework (we have an ayi), I care for my PFB DD, I can stay in my pajamas all day and I don't want for anything. They ignore the fact that I haven't had a full nights sleep in 7 months [sodding exhausted emoticon], spent more than 2 hours away from my daughter, been to the loo in the day time on my own, spent any time at all as a person and not a mother, go days at a time without talking to anyone other than my DH or DD. When DH travels (which is often 5 days a week) I'm parenting 100%.My job (though of course the men would describe it as my life without any irony) is 24/7. I have only just started to have a break now I'm FF.

I'm mostly fine with this and I am happy but I'm not as happy as they would think I must be. After all, life's so easy right?

I suspect my grandmother wasn't very happy but that would have been that. You just got on with it. No one told her she should be happy and that happiness was worth striving for.

Sorry, I've not really added anything to the discussion but I wanted to get that off my chest.

No, I think that's a huge thing - 'No one told her she should be happy and that happiness was worth striving for.'

I mean - that's it, isn't it? All these posts from women in Relationships asking oh-so tentatively if they're being a bit mean to their DH because they don't want sex/don't like him watching hardcore porn/are with a gaslighting cocklodger ... that's what it's all about, that no-one has told them they should expect more.

If you stay in that situation long enough, you persuade yourself you really should be happy, too.

It comes back to choice doesn't it.

Many women would prefer to be out at work, many men would prefer to be at home with the children.

At the moment there is little choice and that is a route to unhappiness.

As someone who actually enjoys working in the jobs that I have done - I find the common belief that not working is fantastic and being at home with children is a dream come true - as per comradejing's comments she has heard - is strange. If people stopped to think for 2 mins they might realise that being at home with children can be tedious and hard work. I don't think people do realise though until they've done it themselves.

At least if you don't like your job you can look for another one. If you don't like looking after your children then in many cases you are stuck.

YY "If you stay in that situation long enough, you persuade yourself you really should be happy, too."

Especially if you are supposed to be happy and fulfilled. No one imagines themselves in a bad relationship, you should be happy, if you weren't happy you wouldn't stay. Few women (I would imagine) think they would be anything less than happy as a mother which ignores the reality that being a Mother can be boring, frustrating, tiring etc.

sunshineandbooks, I agree 100%, it isn't about numbers or competition. That's my point really. All I said was that if initiating divorce is confused with initiating divorce proceedings and men's depression is more often not reported or misdiagnosed the numbers and assumptions that the thread started off with that it is mainly women who leave marriage and are depressed aren't clear cut. I think that is important to feminists because good judgement is based on knowledge/evidence rather than beliefs.

I do agree with the OP that there is a lot of propaganda about bagging a man and living happily ever after which I think raises unrealistic expectations. When the expectations aren't realised there is much disappointment and bitterness. Relationships seem to work better and last longer when expectations aren't so high, there is empathy and understanding and the parties do most things independently of each other but enjoy each others company when they are together.

Can we add religion into the mix?

We've touched on it, but I'm just thinking of my mother who was taught that this life is a veil of tears and you just have to get through it carrying your cross. So a drunken, abusive, violent husband was a cross to bear, poverty was a cross to bear, being unloved was a cross to bear and suffering could be offered up to Jesus and offset against a millenium in purgatory or some such twaddle.

The idea that she actually had the right to pursue happiness, would be insane to her. And the idea that other people pursue happiness, rather than salvation, is outrageous to her. Granted her version of catholicism is a hair-shirt, joyless one, but it has certainly added to the general idea that the pursuit of happiness is self-indulgent, selfish and simply irrelevant.

I agree with that ... I think that aspect of religion could be something that develops because, in a nasty, harsh, irrational world it gives you comfort to rationalize and find a use for your suffering ... but then the theology becomes a straightjacket and the flipside of suffering is seen as wrong.

so true about religion. I was told just recently by a relative of dh "God made women to suffer, he has made our lives difficult, but he gave us the virgin Mary to comfort us." Why would anyone worship a god who they believe is deliberately causing them as women to suffer? I just don't understand it.

Disclaimer: I am Christian.

But I don't get the Virgin Mary as a 'comfort'.