"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

[HerBeX]

This caught my eye on another thread, but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it was interesting in the context of marriages, relationships etc.

My immediate response was "isn't it"?

On one level, of course it isn't, it's an overall human issue (but that's true of lots of feminist issues too).

But then I thought, well, there's this whole hetero-normative monogamy propaganda out there, women are constantly being told that the way to gain happiness is to bag a man and live with him until one of you dies and yet nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce, usually instigated by women, because clearly that hasn't made them happy - or maybe it made them happy for a while but no longer does?

Mumsnet is full of threads with unhappy women asking why they are unhappy and so far as I can see, it's generally bcause their DP's have an enormous sense of entitlement which neither partner has analysed or realised is there and so therefore can never be effectively addressed. And because men and women appear to expect very different things from marriage and partnership. And surely feminism arose from the big enlightenment question of how can people be happy. Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual.

All of which are feminist issues and possibly interesting enough to kick a few thoughts around?

I really don't think that women long to retain a hold on the hoover.

chickens - yes that is exactly my point - but better expressed! We need to accept that life isn't perfect.

Well the pursuit of happiness is an enlightenment idea isn't it.

The American constitution, wiht its right to pursue happiness, was unique (I'm not sure if it still is, is there any other nation where the right to pursue happiness is written into the constitution?)

It is a very modern idea. I don't think it's a bad one though.

And the problem with the idea of getting happiness through serving others, is that that version of happiness is the traditional one offered to women. But it isn't the one that's sold to men. And it isn't making women happy AFAICS.

depression and gender

I, er, don't get much pleasure at all from caring for others. But I can see that there is a societal expectation which is satisfied with me when I do. It just doesn't happen much.

MI - not the hoover. That is not my point. But I think you are clever enough to work that one out...

'I think happiness is a feminist issue because so many women put their own happiness below that of their partners, children, families, work colleagues, etc. So many women are not assertive enough to put their own needs first, the needs that would lead to more happiness for them. And when women do try to put their own needs first, they are often accused of being selfish and guilted into not doing whatever they want to do.'

I agree.

Then you shouldn't expect life to be perfect

Well, I'm grateful to my mother for looking after us as best she could rather than just trying to 'be happy' instead of cooking great food for us.

But we should, surely, aim to improve the imperfections? Rather than saying 'that is the way of the world, resign yourself to it?' Women have votes, equal pay, maternity leave, because we said we weren't putting up with a situation that forbade us those things.

That's true. I sometimes feel guilty ffs for doing something that is solely for me. I get over it and do it anyway, granted, but that little niggly guilt is still there however fleeting.

Qwepoi, well, that's great for your grandmother. I think it's pretty patronising to tell a woman who wants to go on holiday that she'd actually be happier staying home and making her children happy. It's exactly that kind of attitude that keeps women doing what everyone else wants or needs and putting aside things that they want to do for themselves.

The idea that happiness is a modern idea is ridiculous and yet another tactic to socialise people into doing what society demands first and foremost. We wouldn't have 5000 years of recorded art, music, philosophy, sports, literature, religion for that matter, if all humans cared about was survival and work and good deeds.

What is different today is that happiness has become a consumer product and marketed to different audiences. If people buy into that, well, they'll probably not find what they think they're looking for, but that's different from the basic human sense of wanting to be happy.

'Happy' is even a modern word, I think. I think back in the day, people had ways to say they were content, or healthy, or amused, or cheerful - but you don't seem to get a lot of references to just being plain happy. I suspect that's natural in a world where it's so hard to live and the idea of being happy - contentment with no reason for it - was almost morally suspect.

I like that we can get away from that idea. Saying 'you shouldn't expect life to be perfect' strikes me as mean-spirited, really. Sure, be aware of the bad stuff but don't let it get in the way of living your life.

I think the idea that happy people are selfish is a red herring. There's no intrinsic connection - IME happy women have energy to support other people, so do happy men. The way some people talk, it's as if there's a finite amount of happiness around and god forbid women use it up!

And those women who do love caring for others might also enjoy pursuing that outside the domestic sphere.

YY to dreaming btw - that thing of having a niggling unhappiness but that not being a good enough reason to leave.

The right to the pursuit of happiness is written into the American constitution. But what they really meant, was men's right to pursue happiness. The idea that women should have tht right, is such a novel one, that it frightens the horses when it's raised.

I remember wishing my xp would hit me or fuck a blonde or something, just so that I had a "good" excuse to dump him. Being permanently unhappy just didn't seem a good enough reason to change my life.

Is tht true of men? Do they expect to be happy and to have the right to pursue happiness?

Yes it's odd that so many people think that expecting to be happy = expecting life to be perfect.

Happiness isn't perfection, is it?

No, it isn't a modern word.

Why shouldn't men be happy and have the right to persue happiness?

Back to the op, when I reflect back on my school days, an academic girls school, all very feminist. It was 100% about getting a job, I never remember the idea that any of us would one day be mothers being raised. Home ec was the reserve of a few who weren't 'clever' enough to do something 'better'. I got good results, job etc but was totally unprepared for where I find myslef now.

And dreaming - it may be patronisng to tell a women that she shouldn't go on hols without her children, but I think it's sad that anyone should have to tell her at all. Poor children.

qwepoi I think it's a question of balance (and that is actually tue for men).
If you have dcs and carry on selfishly to 'just' try and find happiness for yourself then it is an issue and I would agree.
but if, on the other side, you always put yur own happiness on the side for the sake of the dcs (or anyonelese for that matter incl husband, parents etc...) then it is an issue too.
The reality is that, when one is happy, then one is better at looking after their dcs (take for example the effect of having a depressed parent on children) so it shouldn't be incompatible.

'I think the idea that happy people are selfish is a red herring. There's no intrinsic connection - IME happy women have energy to support other people, so do happy men. The way some people talk, it's as if there's a finite amount of happiness around and god forbid women use it up!'

Absolutely!

I mean, look, I've been through tough times in my life, I know life isn't perfect, but I think going through life not expecting or trying to be happy is just kind of pointless. We only have one life and god knows how long it will last, I don't see any virtue in shuffling through making the best of things and that's it. If I thought that way I would honestly not be alive right now.

Thanks mother. I was just trying to remember when I'd heard it used instead of the other words I mentioned ... off to look it up now!

I believe that a good marraige is best for men, women and children. But there is a big difference between my idea of a good marraige - equality throughout, respect, love, generosity etc, and the way many people see a good marraige. I think as far as marraige goes, that far too many women set their sights far too low. Women marry men who are a waste of space and then wonder why they are unhappy and why their husband is such a tosser. There are countless threads on here about husbands who refuse to do anything domestic or take any responsibility for their children. And so many women who say 'Well, they are men, you just have to put up with it'.

To my mind, if more women had the balls to either be single (possibly forever) or only allow a decent man into their lives then the sexist dinosaurs would die out after a couple of generations. Of course this puts the whole thing squarely in the lap of women and sort of lets men off the hook again. But the way feminism is going and with the rise and rise of porn culture, I can't see any other way of changing things.

Ive worked in mental health on and off for 10 years, and men are seeking more help now than ever before.

They'd tough it out before (hence the higher suicide rates for men)

Goverment statistics.

'There are more suicides in males than females. In 2009 there were 4,304 male suicides (17.5 per 100,000 population) and 1,371 female suicides (5.2 per 100,000)'

So i don't think men are any happier