"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

[HerBeX]

This caught my eye on another thread, but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it was interesting in the context of marriages, relationships etc.

My immediate response was "isn't it"?

On one level, of course it isn't, it's an overall human issue (but that's true of lots of feminist issues too).

But then I thought, well, there's this whole hetero-normative monogamy propaganda out there, women are constantly being told that the way to gain happiness is to bag a man and live with him until one of you dies and yet nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce, usually instigated by women, because clearly that hasn't made them happy - or maybe it made them happy for a while but no longer does?

Mumsnet is full of threads with unhappy women asking why they are unhappy and so far as I can see, it's generally bcause their DP's have an enormous sense of entitlement which neither partner has analysed or realised is there and so therefore can never be effectively addressed. And because men and women appear to expect very different things from marriage and partnership. And surely feminism arose from the big enlightenment question of how can people be happy. Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual.

All of which are feminist issues and possibly interesting enough to kick a few thoughts around?

LRD, I definitely agree with you - unfortunately there are an awful lot of women who try to take their sense of self from their children's achievements, with unhappy results for all parties.

I don't look to be 'happy' in a vague way, but 'purposive'. I don't think a lot of women feel purposive, because their talents are massively underused in all those part-time positions, and once the initial whirlwind of early childrearing dies back, they look about and think 'is this it?' And, I think looking at your child's achievements as your sole achievements is very misguided: if your own parents do the same, how does that make you feel?

Slightly different topic, but HerBex, I also noticed the unpleasant mysogenistic streak in topics on the BBC last week in relation to the riots. On Sunday morning we were treated to the BBC earnestly discussing 'should women stay at home and look after the children?' It was like the last forty years never happened (and of course, no-one talked about the political and structural situation of needing both parents to work for economic reasons, or the consequences of taking 50% of the talent out of the pool, or why dissatisfaction with the housewife experience was related to feminist thinking in the first place or whether these 'women' were expected to stay home for 45 years). I felt like banging my head on the telly (and asking for my license fee back).

Takver thank you for the quote.

Although I am now incandescant with rage.

And sadly the quote would still resonate with lots of people, not least our current government. Although their ideas go a bit haywire when it comes to single mothers where they seem to want them in 2 places at once.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Spoons, I wonder if said Dutch scientist has ever read Ann Oakley? I bet not.

William Morris is similarly unenlightened about how we should all stand around being beautiful, contemplative and domestic, freed by the revolution from the concerns about childrearing that provoked the outburst of late 19th century feminism; once we know our babies will be cared for in a post-revolutionary Utopia we can just churn them out while we churn the butter.

"'There are more suicides in males than females. In 2009 there were 4,304 male suicides (17.5 per 100,000 population) and 1,371 female suicides (5.2 per 100,000)'"

women attempt suicide more often (less violent means)

'there's some Dutch scientist who says women find housework fulfilling. A male scientist.'

Why, what a surprise.

My dad still is adamant that he could never have 'coped' with being a SAHP because he just 'can't' multitask like that ... never mind my mum ended up with severe depression, you know: obviously that doesn't count as a sign of her not 'coping'.

Once again, it seems happiness is just taken out of the equation.

Nothing is preventing you, as an adult, from learning something for yourself - you ought, as an adult, to be an independent learner who doesn't require a teacher for everything (though many advanced skills are learned much more easily from contact with an expert in addition to book learning and personal research). Children require other humans to learn nearly all skills. It is quite right to delight in passing on skills, as well as acquiring them for yourself. How selfish not to be able to delight in sharing your own expertise!

Housework is in no way fulfilling. You can feel a sense of achievement if you get on top of it for a few fleeting moments, but it does not complete me. It's a necessary evil, like a lot of things in life. Now gardening I find fulfilling. Because I'm working to my own plan, and creating something, hopefully, beautiful. No one has ever looked at a clean bog and described it as 'beautiful' have they?

mother - I can't read that without having the video from Amish Paradise in my head, where he's, ahem, 'churning butter' rather vigorously ...

I do wonder what your quotation says about WM and sex.

Care and maintenance of personal property is fulfilling. I don't think a throwaway, careless attitude to personal property is fulfilling.

(I was paraphrasing, mind. I cannot bear to return to read News from Nowhere. It appalled me when I was 18, and that was 30 years ago.)

I find housework fulfilling and therapeutic but it's a novelty that might wear off again, years seem to elapse between bouts of it.

I like cooking, but would absolutely hate to be expected to do it every bloody night.

bonsoir - I don't think that distinction between child/adult learners makes sense. You are maybe thinking of experienced versus inexperienced learners?

I know lots of parents who only tackle their own very poor literacy/numeracy when they become parents ... in a way this is lovely, and they are being good parents that they want to do this for their childrens' sake. But it is a shame if a woman thinks her education is only valuable because she can pass it on to a child, and that attitude is liable to leave women in poverty longer, IMO.

I don't think it is naïve, and you don't need childcare in order to focus your mind and learn things - you need well-behaved children you have brought up well and who can entertain themselves (it is, of course, a skill in its own right that many parents are interested in acquiring to bring your children to be like that!).

I do quite enjoy passing on skills when paid to lecture to journalism students.

... well behaved NT children, I should imagine.

Bonsoir it would be selfish not to pass on skills to your children.

Not to bother communicating with them, reading to them, teaching them to climb, cook and all the rest of it.

Not delighting in those activities is not selfish, though. Not everybody enjoys the role of teacher. Same as not everybody enjoys the roles of cleaner, organiser, finance sorter, household prettifier, cook, gardener and so on. Most people enjoy some roles but not others. That does not make them selfish, it means they have a personality and are not a robot.

Of course it makes sense - the whole point of education at school is to get to a point where you don't need the institution any longer and can learn for yourself. And women can pass on their education to their children (and ought to, as should fathers) - transmission of knowledge and skills is a vital part of being human - but also require it for their own negotiation in society in the world of adults, which they will need to do whether or not they are employed OH.

I think discussing who enjoys which skills is to miss the point. The point is, women are expected to be happy because practicing these skills makes other people happy. It's not meant to be about personal happiness; it's about happiness in the service of someone else.