"Being happy is not a feminist issue"

[HerBeX]

This caught my eye on another thread, but I didn't want to de-rail and I thought it was interesting in the context of marriages, relationships etc.

My immediate response was "isn't it"?

On one level, of course it isn't, it's an overall human issue (but that's true of lots of feminist issues too).

But then I thought, well, there's this whole hetero-normative monogamy propaganda out there, women are constantly being told that the way to gain happiness is to bag a man and live with him until one of you dies and yet nearly half of all marriages now end in divorce, usually instigated by women, because clearly that hasn't made them happy - or maybe it made them happy for a while but no longer does?

Mumsnet is full of threads with unhappy women asking why they are unhappy and so far as I can see, it's generally bcause their DP's have an enormous sense of entitlement which neither partner has analysed or realised is there and so therefore can never be effectively addressed. And because men and women appear to expect very different things from marriage and partnership. And surely feminism arose from the big enlightenment question of how can people be happy. Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual.

All of which are feminist issues and possibly interesting enough to kick a few thoughts around?

LRD I'm interested!

Just to be clear, when I said happiness was not a modern concept, I wasn't strictly talking about the word happiness. I just think the fact that so many non-essential things have existed throughout human history (like art, music, philosophy) indicates an innate human desire to get more from life than just survival and work -- a desire to be uplifted in some way, I guess.

LRD (and others), I believe that it is the case that in general, studies find that people who have some 'wider purpose' in their life, whether that be active political commitment, religion, or a career that they consider to be important to the wider world are on average more content with their life.

I think this has to be a feminist issue, because so often women are effectively excluded from these fulfilling activities by their household commitments. So even if they have a job, it is often the woman who gives up the 'career' to take on a part time role that will combine with family care.

I guess the propaganda has always been that women should feel fulfilled by carrying out this caring role, but of course in practice for most women it just doesn't work like that.

"Feminism arose because lots of women realised that many of the causes of women's unhappiness, were structural rather than just individual."

Actually, I think that sentence from your OP really sums the whole thing up. Women aren't 'unhappy' - they're systematically fucked over . . .

For me, hormones do play the largest part in my happiness, I had horrendous PMT for years in my 30's , I literally had one good week a month and my cycle was so short that I was bleeding for one week in three , I don't know how DH put up with me in all honesty, I was must have been pretty vile to live with. I improved immensely when I had my coil removed and lost weight, a stone dropped off me (without effort) when it came out.
Now, I'm contending with the menopause, my periods are getting further apart and my symptoms are like clockwork, day one of my period and I feel like a crazy woman, emotionally out of control, I came home from work in tears on Monday because I'd switched a plug off and turned off everyone's computer in the office, it's a very frightening feeling indeed, complete with palpitations and uncontrollable sweating/hot flushes .
My life has never been better, strong and happy marriage, DD is off having a fantastic life at Uni, we are financially secure and DH is happier in his job than he's been in 15 years, we've had a fabulous couple of years, so hormones are the only factor messing with my head.

I do agree that women are conditioned to be nice and put others happiness first, thankfully it's never been something I've felt pressure to do, a bit of selfishness is good for women I think.

I think that men are under a different but just as insidious pressure though, the pressure to succeed in their careers and to find fulfillment/happiness through their work rather than their family can be immense.

That's an interesting thought, Spoons. As you say, 'feminine' goals are both undefined, and often un-completeable (how ever well you do the housework, it still needs doing tomorrow).

Even if you have a 'wider task' that is in practice impossible (bring down world capitalism), at least when you'd done it, you wouldn't have children spilling cornflakes all over it.

Come to that, I was reading Ann Oakley's book 'Housewife' again the other day, and it struck me how much of it still stands, despite the fact that it was written maybe 40 years ago, and on the surface women's position is quite different.

Hmm, I think men are expected to find happiness from their family life, but that that is expected to be the background happiness to their lives - it's their as a right, to support them, while they go out to work/ politics/ the world and do stuff and find happiness in that. That line from Byron about love: "Man's love is of man's life a thing apart,; 'Tis woman's whole existence" could easily be applied to family life, home etc.

SardineQueen wrote;

The suicide rates are interesting but possibly a bit of an emotive red herring? Out of a population the size of the UK, the suicide rates are quite small. Compared to say the number of people on ADs. this says 36 million prescriptions for ADs written in 2008 - now many of those will be repeat prescriptions but it still points to millions of people in the UK taking them. And that's just looking at people who are being treated - who aren't self-medicating - or on treatments other than anti-depressants.

Recent mental health research in the UK indicates that men and tend to deal with depression by getting angry or self medicating with drugs and alcohol rather than seeking medical help and prescribed medication.

I don't think raising children is full of undefined goals, however. Children, by their vary nature, achieve massively in quick succession. If you teach your children things (swimming, diving, cycling, reading, writing, singing...) you get lots of tangible results pretty fast!

takver - that makes a lot of sense, yes!

dreaming - well, I just like words I guess! It just fascinates me that there isn't really a good word for the same concept until modern English kicks in - I find that quite telling. All the other words I can think of are sort of more about how someone seems to others, than how they feel inside.

I think in terms of actually being happy, the dreaded 'women are so good at multitasking' has a lot to answer for. If you do a reasonably finite job, or a job where you can clock off, you have the time and space to relax a bit. Women in 'traditional' roles don't have this - nor do farmers, who have a very high suicide rate.

Byron was a patronizing git, wasn't he?!

STIDW ? I don't think it's a competition. When you consider the numbers of people on ADs that's a significant proportion of the population. What more evidence do we need to show that society isn't working that well for huge amounts of people?

Now it's probable that women's reasons for depression are completely different to men's. Both are equally valid. But since we're discussing the causes of female depression here, we're concentrating on factors we think are responsible. that doesn't mean we're saying male depression doesn't matter, it's just not what we're discussing on this feminist thread.

STIDW yes I'm sure that is true.

I was just concerned at the suicide rates being used to show that men are more unhappy than women, when those rates are a very small (but shocking) part of the picture.

Lots of people are very unhappy but not committing suicide. Millions of them, in fact.

Agree with spoons that children's achievements are their own rather than mine

Your achievement is the teaching; their achievement is the acquisition of the skill. And you can delight in both!

Yes, spoons. I take pride in my childrens achievements, but they're not mine. And the thing is, eventually children grow up and leave home. So it's in everyones best interests to have a focus outside the home, otherwise you turn in to one of the scary MIL's I'm always reading about in AIBU

i would of thought as a lot of people have sons and daughters discussing male and female mental health issues was important-even if this is a feminist section.

Not only Byron - I remember absolutely fuming when I read 'Small is Beautiful' years back - at one point Schumacher talks about how men are effectively dehumanised by the atomisation of production, but of course it is all ok for us women because we are fullfilled by having children and caring for our families . . .

In fact, it annoys me so much, I've found the quote so that you can all be annoyed by it too
"Women, on the whole, do not need an 'outside' job, and the
large-scale ·employment of women in offices or factories would be
considered a sign of serious economic failure. In particular, to let mothers of
young children work in factories while the children run wild would be as
uneconomic in the eyes of a Buddhist economist as the employment of a
skilled worker as a soldier in the eyes of a modern economist"

Mmm. Not being a parent I hesitate to say this, but I do not like the idea of living through your children/taking credit for their achievements. My mum does it. Yes, it's great she did all these wonderful things to help and yes, I'm sure I wouldn't be where I am today without her ... but I wish she'd done something for herself instead. She is not a happy woman and now her children are grown up, she does not feel she has 'done anything with my life'.

Truckrelented, I think it would definitely be interesting to discuss mental health from a feminist perspective, but perhaps it would be better to start a different thread.

Quite, spoons. I love learning.

Truck I think that the prevalence of mental health problems in society is an interesting conversation and one that has been done before on MN I seem to remember taking part in a very detailed discussion.

However this is the feminist section, and the question of how much women's mental health problems are bound up in their position in society is a feminist question and while it intersects with possible causes of men's mental health problems, I think it deserves its own discussion.