Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

[skrumle]

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

Just so i am fully aware then.

You ABSOLUTELY DO NOT want to hear NON FEMINIST views in the feminist section?

so as a non feminist i am catagorically not welcome to debate any given subject here?

and as feminists you are only interested in hearing feminst POVs on subjects such as this?

Just so i am ABSOLUTLEY CLEAR

righto

non feminists not welcome

proles

not unreasonable - more bemusing that people talking about feminism in the feminist topic must always be feminists.

perhaps mn needs to put one of its disclaimers underneath the title because i genuinely was not aware you had to be a feminist to debate in the feminist section. Maybe you should contact them as i'm sure others might also wander in

I'm not a feminist, I just wanted to debate the OP. No-one would engage with my posts though

im not a newb and i made the same mistake - i had no idea

But what if one is a feminist, but still finds some of what is said to be fanatical theorising? The point seems to be, "we only want to discuss this with people who agree with us. And by the way, if you don't, you've missed the point, don't understand, are just anti-feminist or, worst of all, a man - and therefore are excluded from opinions".

I lurk a lot. I am a feminist but I don't agree with everything I read. I find it all interesting, some of it maddening, some frustrating, often enlightening. I also notice that when the name calling starts it is because someone is not reading the previous posts properly. Usually the non feminists. I think being a newby and disagreeing is fine so long as you're up for a lively debate but this is a feminist site si I think it is reasonable to expect a feminist analysis. I don't think it is fair to say non feminists are not welcome but I wish that the level of non feminist debate would raise above " you're all butters for not agreeing with mainstream thinking". Sadly it's sort of the point that gem thinking is not ( yet!?) mainstream.

Anyway, it's good to question things, even things that are generally considered to be a priority issues. We might debate this topic and decide that there is no power relationship to piv sex ( or not), just wanting to question assumptions and issues doesn't make you bonkers. Anyway off to lurk again now :-)

Argh! Blinking iPhone autocorrect and typing while nursing = crap typing. I blame the patriarchy mutter mutter mutter

Who says your view is non-feminist Custy? I hear the pitter patter of 'misandry' footsteps on these boards sometimes.

And some men don't want vasectomies because the risk of erectile dysfunction and permanent chronic pain are very very real.

Feminist perspective is increasingly becoming obtuse and bizarre. We seem to be reaching the all men are rapists rhetoric.

I also think this section is pretty stifling to people wishing to join, an elitist obtuse club where hating men is a pre requisite to posting. Custy made good points which, for her, makes discussing PIV as ONLY a power struggle is wrong and she's right.

stripeybump I can't speak for anyone else but I personally typed out a couple of responses to your post and then deleted them, because all of them involved talking in relative detail about sex and, given that some of my posts are being plastered across the internet with no context and no right of reply, I don't really want to go there.

I would say though, that your point about enjoying the 'subjugation' (I'm not too sure what you mean by that) within the sex act itself is perhaps something different to saying that you enjoy the fact that contraception is your responsibility (and aside from condoms men CANNOT help with this), an abortion would happpen to you, pregnancy can be very dangerous and could kill you, motherhood is undervalued (all ditto - only women have this).

I don't think anyone on the thread has stated that the act allowing a penis in your vagina is inherently subjugating to a woman - but plenty have observed that there are massive inequalities surrounding that act.

As women, there's no point comparing our experiences with other women to see where inequality lies - we have to compare our experiences with MEN. And in the realms of penetrative sex, men get to do it with little or no risk and women are risking a lot. A hell of a lot!

I like PIV and I totally hear where you're coming from about closeness. But as I said earlier in the thread I'm barred from a lot of contraceptive options and that HAS affected my sex life with regards to PIV (I don't want to be pregnant; I cannot take the risk). Without the options to stop pregnancy, I would stop having PIV sex - my PARTNER, however, will never have to worry about this stuff.

And don't worry - my posts are often ignored too. Debate moves fast!

Posie, I can't speak for you but honestly, really, are you getting man-hating from this thread? It's only the dissenters, I think, that have characterised PIV as a 'power struggle'. Everyone else has been talking about issues of consent and the disparity in risk.

It's really hard to defend yourself against something you've never said, or even thought...

i actually can't really be arsed "defending" myself but i will say this - i have no issue with people disagreeing, i do have an issue with posters calling other posters nuts/insane/lunatic for expressing a feminist viewpoint on a feminist board.

And, this is not a "debate" board - nobody has to defend their viewpoint, if you don't agree then feel free to state that but you are not entitled to have someone engage with you.

Victor[8.57]......good post.

Jenny[00.57]
[but what if one is a feminist and still finds whats said to be fanatical theorising?................................]

well..im not on about this thread as i havent read most of it..but in general...
sometimes something can seem like fanatical theorising but this is because it might be something thats not understood.
theres been other times that ive thought that something is quite frankly claptrap...
as a feminist i just stand my corner and pick my fights.
and as a feminist im always going to be wrong"in some peoples eyes"
personnally...i find it odd that we are fighting about womens issues and yet keep fighting with each other!

sparky

But sakura has said that men should not have sex with women (13.47, friday). Hey, that is up to her, but why is everybody denying her words?! BIZARRE.
Hi-jacking= not wanting anybody here who disagrees with the norm.

There isn't much to discuss, really, sex can be used as a means of control but, equally, it can be mutually agreed to by both parties and loving. What else is there to say? Nothing. The whole thread can be summed up in that sentence.

Sorry, not everyone is denying sakura's words. Just a few.

Only you are putting Sakura's words in the context of ALL SEX MUST STOP ALL OF IT NONE OF IT MUST CONTINUE NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT FEMINISTS SEEK TO CLEANSE LIFE OF ANY JOY STOP HAVING SEX RIGHT NOW.

When really she's pointing out the carelessness - and yes, the cruelty - of men who continue to have sex with women as if it is risk free act. Thread after thread after thread on mumsnet is full of women bewildered at being confronted with all the results of PiV - pregnancy, childbirth, motherhood - on their own.