Does penetration = presumption of power/control?

[skrumle]

Was chatting with my H last night and mentioned the Romeo and Juliet law in Ireland that's been discussed on here a few times. Anyway, when I asked if he thought it was reasonable his immediate answer was "no". I then asked him: if our son was gay, and started a conversation about a sexual experience that he was unhappy/uncomfortable about would he be more likely to feel that our son had been forced/co-erced if he was the one penetrated rather than penetrating and got a in reply...

I have to be honest, when I read the original thread on here my automatic view was that to protect girls over boys like this was to deny the fact that girls enjoy sex too, almost like taking a step back. When I read the thread fully though and thought about the implications for girls I probably did start to think that girls should have more protection than boys.

So, should there be a presumption that penetration equals a greater degree of control? So two heterosexual 15yos - greater responsibility lies with the boy to ensure that this is what both of them want?

Sakura - ok, sorry, I didn't mean to make assumptions, I thought you'd been clear upthread that you personally preferred other sexual activity to PIV.

If we're all accepting that women do indeed enjoy PIV, and it's not going out of fashion anytime soon, isn't it more useful to examine the politics of enjoying PIV sex, as I have been trying to do in my last few posts?

I struggle with the MN Feminism board as I do feel it's very difficult to express anything other than a quite rad approach posts like your last one Prole don't help, I'm not defending PIV, I don't think it needs it!

So, sakura, even though you acknowledge that woman like sexual intercourse, you think it is your place to tell them to stop doing it? Unbelievably arrogant, I must say.
Yeah, really amazing how people can get touchy when an insane comment that sexual intercourse should not be allowed for them is put forward.

People like sexual intercourse and want it, who is anybody to tell them not to do it?

'So, sakura, even though you acknowledge that woman like sexual intercourse, you think it is your place to tell them to stop doing it?'

I must have missed the bit where Sakura told me how to have sex. Could you highlight it for me?

when did ANYONE say that women should be stopped from having PIV???

on AIBU there have been several threads recently asking why we don't just force contraception on teenage girls, and i have seen several threads on different boards discussing long term contraception in a relationship where no more children are wanted. in my opinion the most straightforward forms of contraception are abstinence, vasectomy and condoms all of which a man is either in total control of or has equal control over but it seems that contraception is a woman's responsibility entirely?

this thread has meandered about very interestingly but i guess in my OP i was wondering why we don't place more of a burden on men with regards to whether or not sex takes place. despite the very enlightening list of "en" words that could be used to describe PIV i still have the view that it is a lot easier for a man to penetrate than it is for a woman to engulf so i guess i think men therefore shoulder more responsibility:

• to ensure that the sex is consensual
• to ensure that the sex is legal
• to ensure that contraception is used if a child is not wanted at that time
• to ensure that measures to prevent STD transmission are taken

but they generally don't...

wamster as far as i'm aware you still haven't gone back and acknowledged that your original analogy was inaccurate - do you really still hold that view?

I love you Sakura

Your posts always make me and I think they're off the wall and then I have a think and realise that (as usual) you are making a very good point. Which is a bit scary but hey-ho!

Amazing to think that before I found MN (and I think it's similar for you?) I hadn't even thought about any of this stuff. I knew something wasn't right, and I called myself a feminist, but these sort of ideas never crossed my mind.

I love this section and all of you, even you Wamster

I just don't get this debate......
Who penetrates who, with what, the ages of all concerned, blah-blah-blah.....
Rape is rape. I, for one, didn't lose my virginity consensually. It happened when the boy I'd just started going out with set me up to be ambushed, by a couple of his mates, as he walked me home... But, I hid what had happened - and had to face my mother when I arrived home after my curfew......I was then, for years, abused by a close member of my immediate family. Far more damaging and enduringly so than that initial assault.

I just don't GET this whole, 'feminism,' thing. I mean; started out as women attempting to gain eqaulity with men, as regards pay etc. Then it seemed to morph into this whole thing of women being BETTER than men.
No, we AREN'T! I mean; I HAVE shifted furniture into a moving van when I had no-one else to do it, but if there's a bigger, stronger man around, why would I put myself out so.....?

I really cringe whenever feminism is mentioned. Why? Because it's gone way too far and in the process has demonised men.

That's wrong.

Just stop fretting over who penetrates who and in what order.

Get over yourselves!

Well the whole feminism thing includes a fight to get sexual abuse of all types recognised more, to reach a situation where when it happens people feel about to tell others and report it without fear of being disbelieved or brushed aside, and for the systems to treat these crimes with due seriousness and investigate and prosecute them to the maximum of their power.

To reach a point where coercion is see for the hideous behaviour it is, especially amongst young people, and women going out / drinking / being pretty / whatever is not seen by large amounts of people as meaning that they are in some way culpable if they are attacked.

And so on and so forth.

I don't think those aims are cringey at all.

I am very sorry for what has happened to you, and I'm sorry that (reading between the lines) these people who abused you were not brought to account for their actions.

From sakura at 13.47:
'Surely the focus should be on getting men of all countries, and all walks of life, to stop having PIV with women'.

Pretty clear, isn't it?

Whole quote:

"Surely the focus should be on getting men of all countries, and of all walks of life, to stop having PIV with women, especially if men don't actually know what sperm does. And it seems to me that many men don't really know what their penis does, when it's inside a woman's vagina. Otherwise why do they keep having PIV? With women who don't want to bear their child?"

The first point is that the post is obviously rather sarcastic. The second point is it is talking about not having PiV sex with women who don't want to have children in countries where having children is a higher than average risk.

It's a point which is made in an extreme way but it is still a point.

Especially in countries where women do not have access to contraception, abortion, ante-natal care, post natal care and so on and so on.

Although I didn't write the post obviously, I'm sure sakura will soon say if my interpretation is wrong.

I haven't seen this all day and have just reached Wamster's first (rude) post spoiling a nice discussion. Lovely. I just want to note:

'There's always something to moan about, isn't there? The original post was a fair enough question, but here we go again: same old nonsense.'

Wamster, much of the thread up til you said this was women saying how much they enjoyed PIV sex, non-PIV sex, all sorts of sex. I'd just posted myself about how I find it a shame men only get one orgasm per time and think that's it - not my ideal!

And you think we're moaning.

You are, I'm sorry, an idiot. Or rather, if we were moaning about sex, believe me, I think it was the good kind of moaning.

How is it possible you read about women wanting to broaden the definition of sex because it's SO GOOD and we can orgasm in so many different exciting ways other than and as well as PIV ... and are irritated we're 'moaning' about it?

I mean ... when I got together with my now-DH, who for religious reasons was then a virgin and relatively sheltered, and I told him there was all this stuff other than PIV that could make me come, and him come, he was thrilled. He didn't say 'Oh, but that delightful sexy orgasm-making was NOT SEX and I am insulted on behalf of my penis' ... yet, sorry, I fail to see how the last few pages of this thread have been anything but that. Dog in the manger, much?

Given sakura'sother posts, it is very hard to know when she is being sarcastic or not. Anyway, who are you to say what she means, sardinequeen?

LRDTheFeministDragon, I appreciate fully that other forms of sex besides actual intercourse are enjoyed by many. Great. Intercourse is not the be all and end all of sexual activity, however, sakura would like to stop sexual intercourse- people usually put smilies when being ironic- she said so herself and that, Imo, is nuts.
THAT is what I take issue with.

I do not, generally speaking, find sakura an ironic person.

oh god wamster - i really feel the need to echo victorgollancz:
"Wamster, honestly, is that really what you're getting from this thread?"

can i ask why you are involved in this discussion, because you don't seem to be getting anything out of it? i don't agree with everyone else but i can probably find common ground with most of them whereas your view appears to be that any discussion is a bad thing - that even considering the negatives involved in PIV is somehow anti-sex and anti-men.

and for god's sake wamster stop with the nuts/insane crap.

But why do you not realize that to refer to 'actual intercourse' (and earlier, to insist one must preface all other sex with a qualifying term), is a bit odd really?

I think it's fascinating. I take Sakura's point about the consequences of pregnancy on women, but there are other issues too. If we'd developed as a society such that PIV were something unusual, only done when people wanted a baby, blowjobs were the most usual form of sex, and that was known as 'biting him down' or something ... that'd be fascinating too. It'd have implications for the relative statuses of men and women, too.

But, as a society, we normalize PIV, even though it's only one among several things. And we say that's because it's the only one that results in a baby (except, of course, it doesn't always and these days, we do know about other ways to impregnant ourselves, but don't tend to think of them much as they're unusual) ... or because the man orgasms, or something. It's interesting to think of why.

I read the start of this thread and I admit part of my reaction (a big part) was 'ooh, my body is pretty cool'. I'm sorry, I understand that might feel smug to you, but I'm pretty sure there are things about men's bodies we'd think were pretty cool too. To get all outraged and offended is a bit odd, unless it's because you are upset on behalf of your penis because we're observing definitions of sex revolve around it to a degree not necessary or inevitable.

So it is sane to suggest that people stop having sex? .
You genuinely do not see that comments such as sakura's make this board an easy target, do you? No wonder people take the pee out of it.

Here we go again, though, usual feminist nonsense: you disagree -you must be a man! I'm a woman.

We normalise PIV because it is normal fgs- and I'm the idiot??!!

Ninety-nine percent of people will agree with me, by the way. It is not me that has freakish thinking here.

PIV is the logical, normal way to procreate. Most sexual contact is not intended to result in conception (and people take great pains and use drugs, latex etc to avoid it) but as a source of pleasure. The majority of women don't achieve orgasm by PIV alone, and incur the risk of pregnancy even with precautions, so why is PIV considered the 'normal' way to enjoy sexual contact?

wamster - no one has said anyone should stop having sex. Personally, I don't and I believe Sakura doesn't (from what she said) want to stop having PIV sex either. But it'd probably be good if it weren't such a standard thing - other sex is nice too and doesn't cause pregnancy, which you surely can see is a plus in all sorts of circumstances.

Sorry I assumed you were a man - I reckon being outraged and offended on behalf of someone else's penis is even odder, but, well, whatever does it for you ...

wamster what part of it's normal in a PATRIARCHAL society and this is the FEMINIST board did you miss???