I know this has been done to death - BUT!

[BibiBlocksberg]

If I read one more thread on housework division where some of the posters smugly explain that they have a list from which their darling DH, DP, DF whatever (usually male) has the wonderful grace to pick the jobs HE is good at and enjoys I'm going to scream very loudly and scare both of my cats to death.

FGS - why on earth should any adult get to 'cherry-pick' the jobs least bothersome to them and leave all the rest to the other adult in the house??

Wish that in my days of running around after some of the various males I lived with someone had given me a list to pick and choose from and then pinned a medal to my chest when I deigned it suitable to actually do one of them.

Actually, no, strike that, if I ever got to a stage where I was so bone idle and entitled I would actually find picking from a list acceptable - shoot me!

Can't say this in the 'mainstream' of MN as I'm too chicken

BTW this is coming from a recent convert to feminism - MN taught me all I know! :)

you're erroneously paraphrasing. wildly all over the shop

i am saying propensity to change and awareness is within the individual.they need to be at the stage of readiness to act

chd, cholesterol.most people know diet high in saturated fat is bad.now you can see gp, dietitian, buy motivational book, celeb wt loss dvd and book, be frightened by gp telling you morbidity and mortality, HDL lipd readings....BUT if individual isnt ready to act upon and assimilate the info,then no amount of info,pleading,telling or books will compel them to act.at all

If you were talking about something as obviously right or wrong as murder or child abuse, it would be one thing. People know it's wrong, that they shouldn't put up with it, that ignoring it makes them complicit and that they are responsible for opposing it or will bear the consequences.

But you're not. Our society is still very much reinforcing messages opposing the idea of equality in domestic life. They mostly come from the media and commerce, but are also state-endorsed - take for example the disproportionate effect on women by the Coalition cuts, which have seen many women forced to give up jobs (either by losing those jobs or by being priced out of using child care) and go back into a full-time caring role. The full effect of this has not yet been reached as many of the cuts will not come into effect for another 12-24 months, yet already we have seen the biggest rise in female unemployment in a decade. Against a backdrop where we are being told that "family breakdown" is responsible for all the ills of society and the 1950s model of family is hailed as the ideal.

Once you are aware of a problem yes you have to take some responsibility for sorting it out. But what do you do if you're not even aware of it? What if you think doing 100% of the housework is perfectly reasonable because your DH is 'keeping' you?

And even if you're aware of the problem, what do you do about it? Issue an ultimatum? Might work. Probably wouldn't. Leave? And face a life of poverty and stigma as a single parent (which is undoubtedly going to get worse in the next few years) as a single parent? Not to mention the incredulous look on people's faces when you tell them you left because "he wasn't doing his fair share of the housework".

I don't know what the answer is. Scottishmummy is right in that the most effective way would be for parents to model a good balance themselves, but unfortunately I think the majority of parents behaving like this is the least likely thing to happen.

In 2011 I think there remains a deep-seated reluctance for our nation to equate division of domestic tasks as a direct reflection of the level of respect in a relationship. Even in relationships where it is clear the husband adores his wife, fully respects her and they're both very happy with the relationship I still see many of these wives doing way more than their fair share. If women doing it all in these types of relationships is seen as normal and ok, what hope is there for women in unhealthy relationships or for the children being brought up in them?

Meanwhile, the adverts showing cleaning products/baby products are still overwhelmingly aimed at and featuring women.

I think it's best summed up with

LOL, because posts which continually take us back to point A, force us to state the bleedin' obvious so that we can't move on to point B.

Ho hum. Am off to bed. Good night all.

Which again is true sm but does leave me pondering a sort of 'chicken and egg' situation.

I get the impression that many a member has wandered into MN (to use my favourite example) only because he/she found a google entry from here for an awesome recipe or buying advice (crappy examples perhaps)

Then thought, mmh, wonder what else they've got, ended up in AIBU or relationships and thought 'hang on, thats me, you mean i have a choice in all of this?' and gone on from there.

But then that circles back to being ready and willing to see it then I guess.

Tying myself in knots now, way past my bedtime that's why. Thank you for stretching my thinking horizons again everyone!

people act when they are ready,when its their light bulb moment.just like you did sunshine,but for years prior you didnt have a good enough reason to change so didn't. now whether you attribute that to insight, societal pressure,fear - i dont know. but no one can make someone else change or have an awareness

can put ideas, disseminate information, agitate and discuss.but cant compel people

v slow typer tonight loads of crossposts, last one very behind especially. Goodnight all :)

I don't think you can compare division of domestic labour to cholesterol though. People know that too many takeaways are bad for you, just like they know smoking is bad for them. The same cannot be said for domestic inequality. That's the problem - that women en masse DON'T know how unfair and unacceptable it is.

And they need to have the power to change it. At the moment they don't. Indeed they are often penalised for recognising it and fighting against it (by the breakdown of their relationship for example). Whereas if you cut down on cholesterol you are lauded for it and rewarded with a healthier body.

'Oh I expect the answer might be something along the lines of "because I am considerably more intelligent, competent and cleverer than youw, and I make better choices, and you are an arsehole who makes bad choices".

HerBex, I wasn't meaning woman to woman, I was meaning within a relationship, or a classroom.
'The girls should do the tidying up'
'Why the girls and not you, the boys?'

'You should do the cooking and cleaning and childcare'
'Why me and not you?'

I rather think that more people would have more lightbulb moments, sooner, if there were more messages in circulation that say "It's wrong for one person to be sitting on the sofa every evening while the other does all the house work; If your partner keeps all the money, it's abuse; No woman should have to suffer."

Since these messages are not widely circulated, and Mr Cameron seems bent on promoting the opposite, it looks like a particularly bad time to suggest it's all the womenz fault - unless you say ignorance/naivete is a 'fault'.

oh please.could you be any more patronising
women en masse?you speak for them do you? know they feel subjugated. you know how the supplicant en masse feel.

now thats presumptuous!

and i put to you that in your scenario of women en masse having no insight into how unfair domestic division of labour is. well, then its unlikely they will individually act or change that circumstance,as they arent aware. haven't reached a consciousness and/or volition to act yet

I don't presume to speak for anyone. I'm letting the facts speak for themselves. Women do more domestic chores than men and take more responsibility for children.

Unless you wish to challenge that statement do you?

If you accept it, then are you claiming that women are aware of the problem and are just choosing to let the status quo go unchallenged? Are you aware that is classic victim blaming?

I have more faith in women than you. When women started to recognise being deprived of the vote was wrong, they campaigned for change. When they realised that rape within relationships was wrong, they campaigned against it and the Rape Within Marriage Act was born (that was, shockingly, only 20 years ago).

I am sure the same will be true, eventually, for domestic labour.

Indeed Lenin.

History has shown us that women's equality has been fought for by women, for women. Men have usually had to be compelled to concede it (e.g. criminalising rape within marriage, making it illegal to pay male and female employees differently purely on the basis of gender). Does that mean that women are responsible for ensuring men do not rape? Of course not (though sadly there is a vocal minority who seem to think it does).

That women have had to fight for equality in no way means that it is their moral responsibility to sort it out.

lenin,gosh you sound just like maggie t.is she an icon for you

Maggie had no sense of irony, either ...

oh gosh was it a feminist post modern joke?
spare rib indeed

Yep, Lenin, everything is women's fault.

It's down to me to nag dh til he complies ( or divorces me) to turn off fecking Top Gear and eat his dinner at the table. And to be a bit grateful that he doesn't beat me up.

right now all the mirth is dispensed.and the maggie lovers have cracked a joke off

i was addressing the point that wifework,footwork whatever- a book cannot raise consciousness until that individual is at point of readiness to precipitate and initiate a change.and when at that point,yes books,lectures,seminars can plant and disseminate information.naturally this is why ideologies of most persuasion use groups,discussion,agitation to discuss,raise awareness and agitate