I know this has been done to death - BUT!

[BibiBlocksberg]

If I read one more thread on housework division where some of the posters smugly explain that they have a list from which their darling DH, DP, DF whatever (usually male) has the wonderful grace to pick the jobs HE is good at and enjoys I'm going to scream very loudly and scare both of my cats to death.

FGS - why on earth should any adult get to 'cherry-pick' the jobs least bothersome to them and leave all the rest to the other adult in the house??

Wish that in my days of running around after some of the various males I lived with someone had given me a list to pick and choose from and then pinned a medal to my chest when I deigned it suitable to actually do one of them.

Actually, no, strike that, if I ever got to a stage where I was so bone idle and entitled I would actually find picking from a list acceptable - shoot me!

Can't say this in the 'mainstream' of MN as I'm too chicken

BTW this is coming from a recent convert to feminism - MN taught me all I know! :)

' It will be very interesting to see how they manage their own relationships in the future as they are both pretty well house-trained by DH and me!'

t's worked well so far for my two who are 20 and 16.
Because my DS has Asperger's, he has a very logical mindset and is confused by irrationality.
So he'd probably class being a downtrodden wife as bullying and bad. Hard to say really, as he's not had the first hand experience of observing such a relationship.

Now, that is very interesting too ;)

DS1 has ASD and is 21! I'm not sure that he will be able to handle a relationship with a woman though due to his poor social skills. DS2 is very different. He is 19 and very able with very good, what is the phrase, emotional ? What? Aaargh! But he hasn't had a girlfriend yet, so I have no idea what he will be like as someone's partner.

Got it - emotional intelligence!

Not even got the excuse of wine :(

emotional intelligence?
social communication?
The mind games required to have a relationship?
Mine will need an honest woman who will be straightforward and open about her needs and issues.
Fortunately, that is possibly in his future. He prefers cats.

Got it - emotional intelligence!

Not even got the excuse of wine :(

@ "footwork"

how to put one foot in front of another

We had a street party today. I have seen sexism in action. Men stand by the bbq and discuss who has freezer space to chill beer. Women do all the food.

Few couple relationships start out so unequally balanced in terms of housework. Mostly it becomes established over time - a slow, drip-feed of growing inequality. For many women the process starts on the birth of their first child, when the father goes back to work and she's at home with the baby and it seems only natural to do more because she's 'not working' and 'I'm at home all day'.

Take a look at kids toys - washing machines, irons and vacuum cleaners - mostly in pink with a token few in blue if you look hard enough. Look at cleaning adverts on TV - nearly all featuring women. In fact advertising generally makes it clear that the smooth functioning of domestic life is the woman's responsibility and that men can't be expected to carry on when ill/notice that the oven needs cleaning/cook a family meal without help and instructions/expect to deal with that annoying odour themselves.

Almost from birth women are still conditioned to expect to bear the brunt of domestic responsibility. Unless these messages are subverted by those around them is it any surprise so many women fall into the trap without even realising it?

Yes, with the recent explosion of pink for girls in everything, it's almost as if the work we did in the 70s and early 80s has vanished into a sexist Bermuda triangle.
Along with all the 'My man is too stupid and feeble to manage this properly, so I have to do it,' constantly referenced in adverts, and by real women in real life conversations.

OK, DH and FIL actually do the majority of the cooking, washing up, and housework in our house. This is partly because DD is still a baby (8 months) and they want me to have the time to mother her and have time to myself and partly because I am the DP who just doesn't see mess. That is, all the threads where people complain about their DH not doing x or not noticing x, my DH could write a thread like that about his DW.

Now, I'm pleased that DD will grow up seeing men doing household tasks, but I feel somehow less womanly because I don't do the majority of this. Is that relevant to this thread? I'd really love some thoughts.

Yes it is relevant.
Fight your programming!

men have long since evolved into a mental space where if they know they leave it long enough (i.e. if it turns into another life form) some one else will pick it up. I would suggest holding your nerve, but most of us break at some point. As I firmly believe, most domestic life with men is a war of nerves. No point confronting them head on (hysteric control freak) I like to trip them up a little later on when they least expect it (in front of their parents), then sit with a beatific smile securely in place and watch him squirm his way out of that one. There is no point arguing, just make sure you establish a way of getting one over on them when it really hurts.

men have long since evolved into a mental space where if they know they leave it long enough (i.e. if it turns into another life form) some one else will pick it up. I would suggest holding your nerve, but most of us break at some point. As I firmly believe, most domestic life with men is a war of nerves. No point confronting them head on (hysteric control freak) I like to trip them up a little later on when they least expect it (in front of their parents), then sit with a beatific smile securely in place and watch him squirm his way out of that one. There is no point arguing, just make sure you establish a way of getting one over on them when it really hurts.

and scottish mummy
lets not be aggressive to all our sisters please! we are here to help, not to bash those in other situations. I depend on my husbands wage. I will not be brow beaten about that. THis sort of shit keeps women squabbling amongst each other when there are far more important things to be getting on with. Women cover a broad specturm, which is why we must remain together, from whichever end of life we find ourselves in, support and a nonjudgemental outlook should be the default setting for us all. Including towards men.

i dont have apologise for my point of view,which you term this sort of shit
hmmm yet you asked me not be be aggressive.....just as you dont have to apologise for your choices lolaso have a wee think maybe your being defensive? erlier someone related their sil has made chice to sahm and is extremely happy- great.that is what made her happy with your choices but realistically on mn we all pick at and debate other people s choice- its a discursive forum, and this sort of shit is waht a debate is about.face it ists enacted enough in prient media and real lief so why not mn. so no absolutely no apologies from me for discussing it. and nor do you need to justify it

so you see thats how it goes your choice to sahm is to you is logical,personal
just as me working ft and dc allwent to ft nursery at 6mth- to me logical and personal too

"i despair that anyone needs to read a book to not be a mug." But the point is that people are brought up in an environment where certain things are the norm. They maybe don't think to challenge it even, until it has become a big issue. And then they meet restistance, and don't find themselves in a strong negotiating position.

Now my dh does housework for example, but he doesn't go for us all eating dinner at the table on a nightly basis. The tv is always on when he comes through the door. I argue big time about these things, but he just says that he is 53 and it is what he is used to. I am no mug, domestic skivvy, or put upon wife. He does not want to eat his dinner at the table. He prefers a tray in front of the TV. It's not hurting anyone. I have no rational argument against it, just that I would prefer he didn't do it.

In the scheme of things this is a nothing problem. But people get set in their ways. Women(and men) grow up seeing their mothers doing everything in the domestic forum, whilst dad comes in knackered (and maybe has his dinner on tray in front of the tv). It is normal. It is now that women are more aware and want to challenge this and they need the tools in order to do so. It is insulting to just simply say " mug for putting up with it".

ps lola there is no "all our sisters"
the myth of the sisterhood holds women back and is disempowering as it demands a certain point of view,suggests expectations....and is a crock of keech.there is no more a sisterhood than there is a brotherhood

your example of thr women all cooking at bbq etc,they need to take responsibilty for undertaking it.if woman unhappy and if man is taking the piss.then on a certain level they are a mug for habitually repeating the behaviour and taking it. if a woman facilitates that in her son or partner,she also needs to take a responsibility for enacting and perpetrating stereotypical behaviours. not bought a self help book and told its not her fault

Scottishmummy's best ignored lola, she always comes on the feminist boards on a wind up and she's not really interested in engaging with a feminist analysis of society and relationships. Wifework is really worth reading because it takes a systematic analysis of how many relationships work in the real world, without blaming the individual men or women in those relationships.

Nice easy read too, not long winded and boring...

is that best you can do.its an open discursive thread.
squawking oh ignore.well doesn't show your rigour or range does it?
you feel free to instruct whatever and whomever
i will of course post and participate,as is the point

As a teacher, this is so depressing to read.
All the sex equality/equal ops stuff we do in school, all the ensuring that females and males have equal access to education, all the challenging of sexism by pupils is worthless.
If you see the women in your home life being subservient and acting like second-class citizens, that's what you will be like, following like a helpless sheep in the steps of your mother, unquestioning?
I've known 10 year olds challenge their fathers about their gender expectations, some of the most empowered came from traditional Bengali backgrounds. No power, not adults but still intelligent and brave enough to say why and no and it's not fair.

You're not participating in a discussion SM, you're doing your usual shit - lola's description was perfectly accurate.

And I don't feel like showing rigour or range, just as you don't. Also I'm not instructing Lola, I'm supporting her.

And yes, of course you'll continue to post and I'll wait with baited breath and prepare to be astounded by your rigour, range and insight, as usual.

indeed what one sees enacted and habituated has huge influence
if mummy does all domestic tasks and daddy doesn't its not a great start
and a self help book isnt required to tell you.uh-oh dont do that
some bloody gumption is

Bex you're indeed issuing instructions and not so good to carry your gripes around mn or grumble just ignore but if stuck for further riposte
you may wish to use the ole favourites

1. what about the menz
2. derailer

3.anti-feminist