I know this has been done to death - BUT!

[BibiBlocksberg]

If I read one more thread on housework division where some of the posters smugly explain that they have a list from which their darling DH, DP, DF whatever (usually male) has the wonderful grace to pick the jobs HE is good at and enjoys I'm going to scream very loudly and scare both of my cats to death.

FGS - why on earth should any adult get to 'cherry-pick' the jobs least bothersome to them and leave all the rest to the other adult in the house??

Wish that in my days of running around after some of the various males I lived with someone had given me a list to pick and choose from and then pinned a medal to my chest when I deigned it suitable to actually do one of them.

Actually, no, strike that, if I ever got to a stage where I was so bone idle and entitled I would actually find picking from a list acceptable - shoot me!

Can't say this in the 'mainstream' of MN as I'm too chicken

BTW this is coming from a recent convert to feminism - MN taught me all I know! :)

I could understand the argument if we were discussing women in the 1950s, but to be saying that women in 2011 are still unaware of equality in a partnership and are so downtrodden and Stepfordised that they can't see the bars of the cage they have allowed to be constructed around themselves is horrifying.
My students are 10 and 11, I don't think I#d recommend the Equality illusion to them. I'd rather give them examples from their own experiences, talk about gender roles they can see and encourage discussion about fairness and rights.

Thanks for your advice Scottishmummy, I expect you know how much I value it.

I think the value of reading books like Wifework, Equality Illusion etc., is that it helps people realise that there are systemic traps that they can fall into and forewarned is fore-armed - most couples have every intention of having an equal, fair relationship and they fall into bad habits because of deep seated attitudes that they are unaware of and the inexorability of being shoe-horned into stereotypical gender roles by workplace structures, schools, etc.

"Your own experience" isn't really good enough when you're young - you need to know what the traps are on a mass scale, so that you can consciously avoid them.

You teach young children that when idiots say
'That's for girls'
'It's only boys who are good at x'
'Mums do housework and dads work in an office'
and other claptrap, they should ask why?
You give them examples of gender-breaking stereotypes, and encourage them to respond to situations and activities as individuals rather than conditioned by their sex.
You teach that hey are individuals with rights, and that the rights of others are equally important and deserving of respect, and you do that all the time.
So sometimes, despite the examples set by their families and the expectations of what they will become, they can exceed the limitations placed upon them by the adults. You can educate them.

I used to have the attitude that women must be pretty dim or somehow deserving of it if they ended up in a relationship where they did all the work. "I'd never let that happen to me" I thought. And I didn't. Not for the first 12 years of my adult life. Then I had DC.

I slowly realised that I was living with an abuser and that I was doing way more than my fair share in the relationship. I did do something about it and left (though not without being strangled first), but it humbled me and made me realise that women who believe other women in unequal relationships have somehow 'asked' to taken advantage of (at best) or abused (at worst) are extremely arrogant to think that they have that much control over it. You can control your own reactions, sure, but not your partner's. Most women cave before their men because of the children, for whom they tend to have primary responsibility. A woman will wash the DCs uniform for school because the DC need it and because she knows that it will reflect on her (not her 'D'H) if she sends her child into school in a dirty uniform.

If a woman came on here and said "Should I leave my DH because I have to do all the cooking and washing up and he only vacuums once a week" what sort of reaction do you think she'd get? Some might say "leave the bastard" but most would say "don't over-react" or "be grateful he does the vacuuming" or "men! he can't help it you have to make it easy for him" etc ad nauseam. Can you see David Cameron thinking that a woman leaving a man because of housework is valid or would he think she's being irresponsible and contributing to family breakdown? In fact, I'd hazard a guess that nearly every single reaction to this would be about the woman's leaving rather than the man's inability to pull his weight about the house.

I'm older and wiser now and what worries me is that there is a tendency among the well-educated politically minded to think that women are partly responsible for their own downfall because this is the 21st century. Sadly there are huge pockets in this country where the assumption that women will bear nearly all the responsibility for home and children still holds true and is borne out in reality. I see it around me every day.

' the inexorability of being shoe-horned into stereotypical gender roles by workplace structures, schools, etc. '

I don't see schools doing this. I see parents, relatives and the media pushing stereotypical gender roles onto very young children, and the schools trying to counter the flood.

Yes, for me personally, books such as wifework and the equality illusion were complete eye openers.

I was led to MN by a desperate google search on whether I 'had' to fulfill this traditional female role that I'd internalized so well from childhood on.

Only a growing sense of unease coupled with anger and frustration at the relatively easy life the men in my life ended up with through efforts on my part finally led me to see 'the light'.

I (I,I,I :)) still think it has a lot to do with the willingness of one party to so willingly give up responsibility for the 'inconvenient' parts of their life to another which helps to create so much inequality especially in relationships.

Mix that with a mindset of 'caretaker' (as in my case) and it can easily end up a match made in hell for at least one partner.

reflection and personal growth comes from an acute sense of self and self responsibility. a book may trigger a realisation,yes of course.and from that stems the how did i get here?, awareness of ones own triggers and cues,and ability to accept self responsibility

its wrong their are societal pressures exerted upon women,but there comes an associated responsibility that if some women do enact,and habituate stereotypical roles,they have some self responsibility for resultant stereotypical roles.roles they enact out to their children,and other adults

and only from reflection,self awareness and ability to take self responsibility can one facilitate own change,and in some way enact a demonstrable good role or behaviours around domestic chores etc

an immediate demonstrable start is the roles we enact to our dc.
working, being clear nothing is intrinsically womens work and,not doing all the chores. all a good start. easier to initiate than taking on institutions like school or various workplaces.can start tomorrow if so minded.

Reading books etc. can promote self awareness.

It can give people that "light bulb" moment.

I must admit I find it very strange that people should be so hostile to the idea of reading books.

its a truism some books will empower some people
there is no definitive book that has hit the mark for everyone
thats not hostility to books is acknowledgement some books catch a mood,an unmet need for some people. not all people read or experience books same way

Can't disagree with that scottishmummy. What we need as well is more RL responses like that as well.

I had a bad habit of complaining to my female friends about just how useless he wass and how unhappy i was and on and on for years and years. And all of the people I spoke to, not one was able to say 'listen, you don't have to put up with this crud, you're the captain of your own ship, sod him if it's that bad.

So many females (that ive come across in RL) seem to be living a similar reality that I was. I suppose if you're living it and are scared to lose the little you're being offered it is difficult to advise another to do/think the total opposite.

It wasn't until I arrived at MN that I found such a 'collective' of strong women who weren't/aren't afraid to call a spade a spade which ultimately interrupted my 'oh, isn't it awful, but what can you do with these men' type thinking.

really? after a prolonged period of listening to any relationship malasie id be saying call it quits and take self responsibility for where you want to be
look at how you got here
recognise and know your own triggers and dont habitually repeat the triggers

If it were that simple, then Mumsnet wouldn't be necessary.

Neither would counselling, books, magazines, support groups etc.

any self help or empowering book relies upon individual action and propensity for change.its the basis of any therapeutic rapport - volition, ability to act and desire for change

thats what all the books,counsellors,etc need to initiate progress

Well, I'm pleased and relieved you clarified that.
One of the key questions I find is 'Why me and not you?'
The answer should make sense.

any therapeutic rapport is a dependant upon individual readiness,propensity,and ability to act

staff,medication,family and others can support to sustain and maintains change.but essentially any change is initiated by the individual.with support yes. but essentially the individual has a readiness to act which systemically the system such as gp, local authority,sw, cmht can support

but no one can compel anyone to act when they aren't ready or dont want to.

you can see this enacted in health and social care

Lenin's distilled what I disliked about your posts here, scottishmummy. If we are all personally and individually responsible alone for our choices, where does that leave people like Bibi and me (and millions of others, natch), who were indoctrinated by our surroundings and media influences, etc, etc?

It's not good enough to say Tough, it's your fault you fell for it, stop whining. We need the counter-influences to reinforce our feeling that there must be another way (and get clues as to how to find it.)

Bibi's right; the normal attitude is still the one which assumes it's a woman's lot to do more than her share of 'wifework'. Wishing things were otherwise won't make them so.

Oh I expect the answer might be something along the lines of "because I am considerably more intelligent, competent and cleverer than youw, and I make better choices, and you are an arsehole who makes bad choices".

People are free to think along those lines of course, but not only is that not a feminist analysis of why people fall into bad relationship dynamics, it's also not a very interesting or empathetic one, and it's not a very useful or helpful one to people who are trying to wrestle with it in their own lives.