I know this has been done to death - BUT!

[BibiBlocksberg]

If I read one more thread on housework division where some of the posters smugly explain that they have a list from which their darling DH, DP, DF whatever (usually male) has the wonderful grace to pick the jobs HE is good at and enjoys I'm going to scream very loudly and scare both of my cats to death.

FGS - why on earth should any adult get to 'cherry-pick' the jobs least bothersome to them and leave all the rest to the other adult in the house??

Wish that in my days of running around after some of the various males I lived with someone had given me a list to pick and choose from and then pinned a medal to my chest when I deigned it suitable to actually do one of them.

Actually, no, strike that, if I ever got to a stage where I was so bone idle and entitled I would actually find picking from a list acceptable - shoot me!

Can't say this in the 'mainstream' of MN as I'm too chicken

BTW this is coming from a recent convert to feminism - MN taught me all I know! :)

Completely agree, scottishmummy. I also wonder why so many women do work full time and yet still do all the housework.

Just seen your post re. how did I get here scottishmummy.

That's exactly the question which led me to MN originally.

Wifework makes a good attempt of explaining some of where the road first starts with a lot of women feeling somehow obliged to take on too much.

In my case, conditioning throughout my childhood and teenage years was heavily weighted towards the attitude that to be a good woman I had to keep house and look after the men.

And even now there is a lot of that attitude around us which enforces the whole 'aah, bless, he's only a man, leave him alone' type thinking.

had no idea i have so much to say on this subject.

I think we do more housework because we will be more harshly judged on the state of our houses than men are. Social pressure and conditioning are tough to ignore

I started looking for answers because my previous set-up was just ridiculous. Two single capable adults, no children and I felt i was far more responsible for the 'keeping house' stuff.

More importantly, he was happy to let me. I should think that in most relationships/households one person probably does do more than the other for periods of time - and then the barometer swings back the other way?

Thing is, the person who knows they've been doing far more taking doesn't have to carry on with that indefinitely do they?

All it takes is for that person to say 'leave that, I'm doing it, you go off and have a rest' or whatever.

In my situation that would have never happened because he felt entitled to receive a domestic service and would have carried on taking forever.

No, I think you're right, BB. Although we perceive it as a relationship issue - that is, we perceive it (perhaps for the first time) when it becomes a relationship issue - it is a feminist one.

It's a feminist issue because of the pervasive conditioning and societal expectations, which make 'wifework' a woman's responsibility. For TWELVE YEARS, I didn't notice or question that I did all that stuff - along with a very demanding job, being fashionably groomed, etc, etc. And I was a feminist! It just didn't occur to me that our time off should have been equal, nor that he should have just picked up some stuff and done it.

To be fair, that was the Eighties and people are less stereotyped these days in terms of expectations. But I find it amusing to drop into Mumsnet threads that I don't do housework. I'm always swamped by replies from people recommending Flylady, advising little-and-often strategies, etc, all of them believing themselves helpful. It's a rare poster who says "OK, if it suits you, fine."

Since I've never once posted that I'd like to be able to do more, all this helpfulness is based on an assumption that I should do housework. I'd be very surprised if people were so eager to tell a single man the same thing.

The point has often been made that the way to deal with a nagging wife is to put your dirty crocks in the dishwasher, empty the washing machine, wipe the sink after you, and so on. And yet ... wives still nag, and husbands still go down the pub to get away from it. And the wives continue to pick up the stuff, secure the food supply, etc, etc, etc ...

I agree with scottishmummy. The question is, perhaps, why does it continue to be a problem and how to stop it?

Anyway. I don't do housework but I do clean every six months or so (!) and today is the day. Better get on with it

Just re-read that and realised I was 'awfulising' to an extent. In the Eighties I had a cleaner/ironer. This was, however, my own decision and my responsibility - and I did all the other stuff. When I left him, I had to write him a manual because he really didn't know how to work the appliances, put together a balanced meal, or anything. So the point remains; just that I did take care of my workload in a rational(ish) way and hadn't made that clear.

I was going to get a bit annoyed with your first post OP, 'til I read

'Nothing wrong with 'cherry picking' per say Bertie if it's done in a mutual agreement/discussion setting.
i.e - I'll take care of the washing because I don't mind it as much and the other partner agrees to take on another task etc.'

We are list makers and dividers of jobs according to preferences, and the horrible jobs that neither like, we do on a rota basis. The teenagers are part of this too. No sense of 'Wifework' or cherrypicking, because we really do find different things horrible. He irons, I do the supermarket shop.
We've been living together since 1983, so most of the negotiation has been done. I never felt obliged or pressurised into fulfilling someone else's expectations, but it goes back to having married an adult, not a spoiled petulant brat.

it goes back to having married an adult, not a spoiled petulant brat
Indeed!

Did/do women tend to remark on his doing the ironing, as if he were some sort of miraculous freak, Goblin??

I cherry-pick. I don't clean the bathroom or hoover/mop the floors and I rarely iron. Also, dh does about 80% of dealing with night-time wakenings. I am no slacker though.

I am interested in what Garlic was saying about my inner mother looking after his inner son. I tend to do most of the cooking because nice food makes people happy. Or maybe it's because I can control what we eat and make sure it's healthy.

I actually think I might get more 'time-off' than dh (he has taken the dc swimming). However, I feel guilty about this whereas I would imagine most of the men being written about on mn don't.

Thought you'd gone to do your womanly duties garlic

Sunday is no day to start a bi-annual clean anyway.......

Glad I didn't offend anyone who does run a (fair) list system Goblin (sorry too lazy to type out full user name)

What gets my blood temperature rising are threads where the OP says 'he will do dusting and cooking but refuses to do the washing/garden/bins etc as he doesn't like those tasks'

I always want to scream 'well, who do you think gets stuck with all the crud you refuse to go near?'

Don't suppose there are many of us who relish scrubbing the toilet bowl but it does have to be done.

Have made a mental note of your rota system for tasks both partners hate in case I need it in the future.

Still having trouble picturing feisty garlic with 80's powersuit and shoulder pads running around after ANY man

x posted with Yama - not referring to you with my 'getting stuck with the crud' shouting :)

I know! WTF was I doing???!!!!

Must ... clean ... house.

'Did/do women tend to remark on his doing the ironing, as if he were some sort of miraculous freak, Goblin??'

Not women whom we count as friends. The occasional elderly relative, and a few Stepfords at work, but that's their problem.

I know Bibi. Dh doesn't give me a list. I just get stuck in with what I see needs doing (minus the heavier jobs due to bad back) and dh does the same. Sometimes the house gets in a bit of a state and we both roll up our sleeves and get on with it.

With regards to women feeling some kind of social stigma if the house isn't in pristine condition I tend to think that any judging is judging us both. It helps.

This thread has had a reverse psychology effect on my weekend laziness :)

All dust free, clean carpeted and dinner in the oven-ed now (smug)

Was musing while hoovering about how much mess just one more person adds to a household. I used to get moaned at for not doing enough washing - now I find that my own washing consists of two loads a week (if that) The rest was generated by the mountain of socks and underpants he owned, work clothes (outdoor work) which had to done on an almost daily basis, tobacco crumbs on the floor in the living room, bread crumbs sprayed around the kitchen and left for me to deal with every morning and on and on and on.

Takes comparatively little time to take care of your own mess I find.

And the constant - 'I don't get any appreciation around here so I don't do much'

Nowadays I'd just snort and tell him that's because there are two adults doing what has to be done, no medals needed but back then I just didn't have the words AND felt unreasonable to boot (even though he never dished out any awards for what I did)

I haven't seen the thread(s) in question, but I agree with the sentiment of your OP, bibs

Since when is it a good thing for women to further emphasise their status as a second-class person by doing the stuff that everyone else thinks is beneath them ?

That is just martyism to the hilt, and does women (individually and and as a group) no favours at all

Yes, thank you AnyFucker (hello btw :)) I was trying to think of the succinct way the subject of my many rants has been put before and it's what you said - refusing to do the stuff he/she/they think is beneath them.

Amazes me no end though that the 'brain washing' I was put through did such a thorough job as to have me believing it was my 'job' to do what others thought was too good for them.

Another coffee to celebrate my awakening (again) :)

AND the taking responsibility for the jobs Wifey's farming out - as you said at the beginning, Bibi. Women are 'supposed' (it appears) to write lists of things Hubby's to do. Then (it appears) they negotiate, based on what he "can't" do, until they end up with HIS cherry-picked list.

The fucker should just be picking up as he goes, buying loo roll on the way home, knocking up the supper, without being micro-managed by his missus.

I am enjoyng witnessing your "awakening" (as you call it Bibs)

I think the micro-managing is a profound waste of women's time too. What are they dealing with here ? A socially-inept toddler ? Or a lazy man who needs to be told what to do (like he doesn't have his own eyes/ears to see what needs doing)

im not completely sure of the brainwashing hypothesis,it smack of he/society made me do it. individuals need to reflect and accept responsibility for their actions and choices.now they dont happen in a vacuum and societal,and class expectations do impose.yes.but this cant be attributed to a male hegemony. the only people i have ever had jip off about working ft,ft childcare,are other females. its also a mn perennial the good mother,is not an absent mother with ft childcare.only excusable if have to work or penury

so as much as one can argue society/men imposed this expectation- plenty women too adhere and effuse about it

is time to stop the blame game,someone else did it. reflect and ask self
why do i do these things,
how did i get here
and dont just pin it on someone else (men)

If we ignore the fact that many men are lazy, over-entitled sexists, scottishmummy, I agree that the problem is more to do with women's mindset than "it's the menz fault". I think a very high proportion of feminist issues are. But you can't dismiss societal & cultural expectations; they are what shapes us.

The little girl next door has a lovely mum, who does all the 'wifework'. So, already, she and her brother are growing up to see that as women's work. Go to a toyshop and you will see all the little cookers, prams and things in the Girls aisle, while the hammering sets and mechanic kits are in Boys. Switch on the TV; who's doing the shopping and cleaning in commercials and dramas?

It's daft to suppose this has no effect on how we see ourselves, what others expect of us, and what we expect of other women.

not saying ignore,saying lose the not my faut,menz/society did it...
self worth and confidence is based in knowing self and taking responsibility.not wholly blaming men/society/external others

sometimes you get the life you settle for.and if yu have a malaiase a large part is down to yourself.you need to initiate a change,recognise own triggers

'is time to stop the blame game,someone else did it. reflect and ask self
why do i do these things,
how did i get here
and dont just pin it on someone else (men)'

Agree, my aunt used to say that if you behave like a doormat people will wipe their feet on you.
It annoys me how intelligent women get into poor patterns of behaviour and then grumble about it, as if they were being forced into it and had no choice. Or drifted helplessly into an unequal relationship on the domestic front.
You choose what to accept and what to challenge, and blaming a partner is far too close to the passive and martyred stereotype to be acceptable as an excuse from an intelligent and independent woman in our culture.
I lived in a lot of shared accommodation over the years, and everyone did their part or the rest of us laid out the situation in a very unambiguous manner. No cherry picking of jobs either, or sex differentiation.
Why should I move on to being someone else's domestic servant just because I was a partner rather than a housemate?

well if a child sees muim is sterotypical wifey role that creates a skewed and one dimensional view of what women do.and indeed if the dad is stereotypical mans roles that is skewed representation too

but for as long as your neighbour fluffs,folds and keeps house that demonstrable enactment of traditional roles and behaviours wont change. and she has to take a responsibility for her choices /behaviours.

but i also acknowledge,that whilst i dont want to sahm.for many it is an active choice.and would be curious to ask them if they felt compelled by social,cultural expectations or actively chose. of course i suspect many will say chose it...wanted to raise my children not outsource etc.

The nature of many individuals is to be lazy and self-indulgent.
If I had a partner who wanted to do all the domestic chores as well as working full time, I wouldn't stand in his way. Hell, I'd be delighted!
Sadly, he expects me to pull my weight.
So a woman that accepts indolence and self-centredness from her partner without challenging it and changing it has facilitated that imbalance.