I know this has been done to death - BUT!

[BibiBlocksberg]

If I read one more thread on housework division where some of the posters smugly explain that they have a list from which their darling DH, DP, DF whatever (usually male) has the wonderful grace to pick the jobs HE is good at and enjoys I'm going to scream very loudly and scare both of my cats to death.

FGS - why on earth should any adult get to 'cherry-pick' the jobs least bothersome to them and leave all the rest to the other adult in the house??

Wish that in my days of running around after some of the various males I lived with someone had given me a list to pick and choose from and then pinned a medal to my chest when I deigned it suitable to actually do one of them.

Actually, no, strike that, if I ever got to a stage where I was so bone idle and entitled I would actually find picking from a list acceptable - shoot me!

Can't say this in the 'mainstream' of MN as I'm too chicken

BTW this is coming from a recent convert to feminism - MN taught me all I know! :)

indeed,if woman reverts to wifey role she reinforces and facilitates her feckless,indolent partner behaviours. so its simplistic to say menz have done this to her.male hegemony ad weight of societal expectation might cut it in socialsciencetastic essay.but realistically if you settle for it,and let partner chance their arm...well some will

Morning mantra
'I am a vertebrate, I am a vertebrate, I am a vertebrate'
Works for me.

Is this not heading towards blaming the womenz instead?

Surely the point of feminist discussion is to identify issues that hold women back and figure out ways of dealing with them ... ?

I am not taking the "blame" for my stereotyped behaviour back then. I didn't even query it, it was ingrained in my sense of myself as a woman. OK, in my case it was worsened by my shitty upbringing, but there are still zillions of little girls like the one next door. How to effect enlightenment, then, on an individual basis and in mass consciousness?

It strikes me that very, very many adult partnerships are based on the mother/son, daughter/father bonding model. How many couples would be prepared to - or even be able to - address that between themselves? What unilateral choices could a woman make, to shift the balance of dependencies in her family and make it more flexible?

as i said its not a blame him/her/society
it is take responsibility and accept your own choices and behaviours
if one habitually externalises and attributes self and where self is to external forces then that is abdication of responsibility.and emotionally amd psychologically immature

and men/society/hegemony compelling women is too simplistic.its part of it.undoubtedly.but not whole explanation

as individual we need to take responsibilities for things we do,places we find selves

like the riots.a cliché is to attribute to society,external others,the haves.again that's an abdication of individual responsibility.as most people did not riot or participate.it was small minority.

Not blame the women, take responsibility for your choices as an adult.
If the system is oppressive, then challenge it rather than falling into step grudgingly. Although it is often harder to do that in the minutia of your own life and personal relationships rather than on the grand stage with words.
I'm a grassroots activist in most things, one of the environmentalist slogans from my youth was 'Think Globally, Act Locally'
Change the immediate and familiar.

i think that if that you have enacted stereotypical role,you have a responsibility to take ownership of it.evidently,things change and eschew that role as no longer applicable or wanted.but the reflection has to be i did that and not menz,society,culture did that

Personal Responsibility is an interesting point and one I strongly agree with - it's also a factor when it comes to 'letting' one partner shoulder the bulk of life's mundane and often unpleasant tasks.

If I examine my own motives and behaviours a bit more then yes, I do and have often wondered what on earth compelled me to carry on doing and cajoling and pleading for more 'help' rather than drawing a line and putting my foot down.

In my case it was (and still often is now) fear. Fear of rocking the boat too much, of being accused of unreasonableness, nagging, being a 'typical' woman and ultimately a fear of being left over my 'unreasonableness'

Having finally found the courage to say no more, being alone isn't anywhere near as scary as I'd so often imagined. I know that in the future I won't hesitate to say 'no, this is not acceptable' but that was a lesson that sadly took me decades to learn.

"I didn't even query it, it was ingrained in my sense of myself as a woman" - that resonated with me to garlicbutter!

My SIl is a joyful 1950s stereotype of a housewife and has been for years.
She cooks and cleans and cares for her man and her children. She always has a smile and a hot meal ready for visitors, she takes care of her appearance and defers to her husband on most things.
They have a happy relationship and each is very comfortable within their respective roles.
Her daughter and sons are very different and have chosen to live very different lifestyles with their partners.
I have no trouble accepting that this is a valid choice, it works well for them all.

personal responsibility and reflection facilitate learning and can precipitate attitudinal behavioural change

if habitually stuck in rut, always have a malaise. look to yourself first. what traits,habits and behaviours do you replicate time and time again?and why?

if it works for your sil,no malaise.then fair enough

Exactly, it was a positive choice for both of them, and they also cope with the fact that their children have also made their own active choices.
It's the grumbling that annoys me when I listen to women at work.
If you don't like something, have a talk, make changes.
If you are afraid of your partner, of his reaction, then there is already a deep flaw in the relationship.

cant abide the fatalistic moaning of some on mn without desire to change anything.stop being a martyr,grow a spine and if your not happy with domestic division dont facilitate it and then moan

Wifework not available on kindle unfortunately.

DP just came in and said "shall I put the oven on?" which makes me feel happy when reading a thread like this.

We both do the cherry-picking thing a little, not from a list but by doing a job that we don't mind very much so the only jobs left (for the other person to do) are the ones we'd rather not do. Usually works out okay as we have different preferences, but cleaning the bathroom always gets left til last and put off because no-one wants to clean it.

"but cleaning the bathroom always gets left til last and put off because no-one wants to clean it"

i despair that anyone needs to read a book to not be a mug. the premise is kinda bleeding obvious
what next?
footwork aye put one in front of the other....

Did you mean to insult people here?
Where's the sense in posting to the Feminism board, if all you want to say is that downtrodden women are stupid?

I didn't mean to insult anyone, but I do think that women who complain about their lazy and selfish partners ought to stop facilitating their attitude and challenge it openly.
Downtrodden? Oppressed by people in power?
Who gives your partner power over you? If that's the case, then the relationship is abusive and should be ended if it can't be improved.

I feel the same when people complain about their lazy and selfish teenagers taking advantage.

i dont value so called self help or ta-da revelation books
they line someone pocket and dont really tell you something you didnt already know

i find the premise a bit rise up and do as i say

How can you Fight The Patriarchy if you are scrubbing their scummy bath and ironing their shirts?
How can you change the inequalities in society if you won't try and discuss change with the man you love?

I gave my partners power over me because it's what I was trained to do. I suspect the same is true, to a lesser degree, of women who do all the 'wifework'. They don't have to be threatened to do it - neither did I - because the role of cook/bottlewasher is entrenched in their identity. They mind their partners taking (and their kids) taking the piss, but it doesn't really strike them that things could be different.

They moan to their women friends, make a lot of "Oh, you know men" (ie, sexist) jokes, and helpfully offer me housekeeping hints. I find it frustrating, too, but I don't find them stupid.

How can you change the inequalities in society if you won't try and discuss change with the man you love?

Good question. Ime, feminism still is the eye-opener in a lot of cases. The genius of The Patriarchy is its total infiltration through all of our ideas, culture, what we call normality. Once you start noticing it, you start discussing change.

Do they also get cross when other women point out that things don't have to be that way, and that they themselves are the medium through which change could be effected if they tried?
Or do they roll their eyes and say ' Oh well, it's easy for you to say that'

You asked
'Did/do women tend to remark on his doing the ironing, as if he were some sort of miraculous freak, Goblin??'

Not women whom we count as friends. The occasional elderly relative, and a few Stepfords at work, but that's their problem.

He's not a miraculous freak, he's my partner.

When we first got married (before DH became disabled) we shared all of the housework. Then when the DSs came along, I became SAHM whilst DH worked full time. He carried on doing most of the cooking and we did the shopping together. I probably did most of the housework. Later on the roles swapped around as DH had to stop work through disability and I went to work full time. He then said that he would take on most of the housework and has done so ever since. I chip and as do the DSs as they are now young adults.

The good thing for me is that the DSs have a very interesting idea of who is responsible for housework and cooking. When we used to go out for meals in other people's houses, they would always thank the man for cooking the meal as they assumed that he would have done it all. They would also assume that the woman was very techy and knew about computers, because that's something I'm interested in. It will be very interesting to see how they manage their own relationships in the future as they are both pretty well house-trained by DH and me!

Sorry, chip in.

Oh, and too much use of the word "interesting"