Rape? I just don't know, long sorry

[Treelined]

Hoping someone can get my thoughts together and help me.

A long time ago when I was 16 and a virgin, I saw a man at my place of work who I found very attractive. I bumped into him at a pub weeks later and this is what I need help with.

All I remember (I was very very drunk) is him talking to me and saying 'lets go outside'. We ended up about 5 minutes walk away, behind an industrial unit. I didn't know of its existence before this night. I remember lying down and feeling him doing something 'down there' and pain, but thats about it. Most of this I have remembered in flashback since. I got back to the pub somehow but don't remember how. The next morning the whole thing was a blur.

We bumped into each other at work again some days later and he asked me out on a date. We were supposed to go shopping. He drove round and round for ages then stopped in a deserted car park in a rural area. He started kissing me but I said 'come on lets go shopping' so he drove round again. We ended up at the same place and he said it was too late for the shops (it was mid afternoon ). Anyway, he got on top of me and I said I didnt want to (mainly because we were in a car in broad daylight and I was a virgin (or so I thought)). He ignored this and although used no force just carried on. I didn't know where I was, had no way of getting home and just sort of lay there while he got on with it.

He was 23 and I was 16. He knew I was 16 because of the job I did at the time. He told me straight after that he had a girlfriend who was pregnant with twins (this was true I found out later).

I sat there and made sarcastic remarks about buying baby clothes. I didn't shout scream or yell. He drove me home.

Can any of you help me make sense of this? As a very inexperienced 16 year old I didn't realise for a long while after that he'd probably had sex with me on that first night when I was too drunk to know what the hell was going on. Maybe this explains why he acted how he did in the car, because he thought/knew we'd already had sex?

Why did I act so weirdly? I didn't tell anyone or cry. I did however, go on to sleep with 10 men that year. I felt it was going to happen anyway so I may as well lie there and let it. I'm very ashamed.

I did tell someone recently but they said 'Oh I thought you meant you'd been properly raped, you know by a stranger with a knife or something'. Was I raped? I have no bloody idea.

christine, yes you were raped

anybody wish dittany was here ?

Yes I do :(

Actually I have never told anyone about that night except MN. I even went home with another bloke from the party. I think I was trying to blot out what had happened.

I slept with someone (older) when I was 17 because I didn't want to appear childish. How daft is that? I was at a club, underage and he knew my age. He was telling me how beautiful I was etc and then it quickly went on to him telling me he had decided to have sex with me
I was young, drunk and scared of looking stupid. He led me to an industrial unit (where I have since learnt that they have cctv) and we had sex. Afterwards he laughed at me and said "look at the state of you" and walked back to the club.
Sorry OP, you were raped, I was stupid.

swc - please can you save that post on your computer and repost it every time we have a rape apologist thread? It's wonderfully succinct and very, very clear.

I've been thinking about what to do for my daughter as she gets older, I know too many women who have been in this situation.

When I was in my late teens I got involved with a 30 year old man who would pester me for sex when he was drunk, pratically chasing me round our flat. Eventually he'd pass out and that would be that until the next time. I felt very powerless in the relationship until I started self defense courses for unrelated reasons. We were supposed to practise the moves gently with a partner but this guy while agreeing to help me practice would throw his weight intentionally in the wrong direction (because he knew what to expect) preventing me from doing the moves and laughing about how they were usless and any man would be able to overpower me.

I lost my temper, used one of the moves in earnest and despite his throwing his weight the wrong way managed to throw him down. It made a difference to me and I left him not long after.

My self defence teacher (burly male copper) told us that if we walked with confidence we'd be more likely to be left alone because attackers tended to be inadequate.

I'm not saying self defence classes are a cure all, this guy was the same height as me and not a lot heavier (he was a much bigger man in his head than he was in real life) so if he'd be six foot and muscly I wouldn't have stood a chance but maybe a combination of assertiveness and self defense? If our girls look like they can take on the world maybe that would scare the predators off? [hopefull emoticon].

I suggest that you buy and read this.

It talks entirely about exactly the sort of experience you had, having read it your story just made me think it could have been one of the case studies in this book.

Very sorry for what happened, hope you get the support you need.

I do miss dittany. Might not have always agreed with her, but I respected her. She's the one that encouraged me to re-think a few things, and the reason I ended up here... :( Dittany, if you're lurking, please come back, even if it's just to say "hi". It's been so weird fighting without your back up the past few weeks (especially on the HH thread)

Not just look confident but be confident enough to yell no because they know they have the right too...

I'm not explaining myself well.

OP, yes you were raped, I'm so sorry you had to suffer like that. I'm very sorry also Dylthan.

I've never been in that situation (thank god), but wanted to share one thing about force/fighting back from the perspective of someone who hasn't been raped.

When I was at University I had a male housemate who I used to get on with well. I think we had kissed a couple of times but nothing had ever gone anywhere we just had a very flirty relationship. I remember him taking it too far one time though, we were in my room, in the daytime, other housemates in the house and he grabbed me by the wrists, pushed me back on the bed then used his knee to force my legs apart and lay on top of me really heavily.

He wasn't a particularly big or muscly bloke, but I remember being shocked at how strong he was and absolutely certain that had he wanted to rape me I would have been absolutely physically powerless to stop him. I still remember the sensation of him forcing my legs apart with one knee and being so shocked that he could do that with what seemed like so little effort.

Not sure why I'm sharing really, but I wanted to really emphasise that I haven't been raped and I think it is totally normal to be powerless in a situation like that where someone can use FORCE, not necessarily violence, but very strong, controlled force.

I can't find the article now, I'm afraid. I have a feeling it was linked to around the time of the school run coffee thread, but I can't find it anywhere, and googling related terms is throwing up increasingly depressing things

Treelined and Dylthan, you were raped. I'm so sorry. Christine, AnyFucker, and anyone else reading who has been raped, I'm so sorry. Those men are utter shits.

It's a minority of rapes that are carried out by strangers with knives - most of the time, men rape women and girls that they already know.

I'm really sorry Treelined that the person you told came out with such bullshit. When that happened to me it did extra harm on top of the rape itself. It must have taken some courage to come on here and ask what other people thought.

A year or so ago, mainly thanks to this board, I finally understood that what happened to me 18 years ago was rape. The circumstances were similar to what you described in your OP.

Over those few months, the constant shame that I felt has gone. Instead of replaying the whole thing, I have fantasies of seeing him in public and calling shame on him for what he did. I hold him entirely responsible. I am angry about the damage that he did to me while he didn't suffer any consequences, but my goodness, that feels better than guilt. I no longer have any doubt that he raped me and that he was completely responsible for it.

It's still a preoccupation for me, but much less so. And these days I spend my time thinking not 'why didn't I say something loud enough?' but 'how could he bring himself to rape me?' - it's his actions, not mine, that need to be scrutinised, condemned and prevented in other cases.

And what swc said.

I've sadly known a few girls who had forced sexual experiences when they were young (16, 17, 18) and have gone on to deny the rape or sexual assault and date their rapists or sleep around. IMO all a way of normalising the horror and trying to reclaim some semblance of control. One friend in particular was 16 when a boy she had fallen asleep next to assaulted her. She told me that she woke up to find him taking her jeans off having penetrated her with his fingers and then had sex with her. She never once consented, being asleep and all She dated him for a few months afterwards.
I learned this many years later when we met at work and just listened in in shock. She couldn't understand why I was so angry at that man. I tried to explain that it was rape and she did accept that, but downplayed it as not being "proper rape".

OP and everyone who's posted their stories, I'm so sorry to you all. I don't know what else to say to that. I think you're all very brave for posting.

We are hoping Dittany will come back in a few weeks

Similar happened to me at 19 and a virgin. I have to say I coped the same way as you by trying to see sex as ineveitable. Actually in hindsight trying to enjoy it.

I was seeing a collegue, we were working abroad, and one drunken night he came back to my room. I did not want sex but he persuaded me and did it anyway despite my protestations. It took a while for me to realise this is rape. . I did not consent but was a little too drunk and niave to realise what was happening.

Please seek some support. I didn't and now have this barrier in my life which is hard to pass. I'm not comfortable with men (despite the fact I was engaged and have a DS). I'm now a LP as my DF cheated and I think that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

Youarekidding

What upsets me and makes me really worry for my dds is how many stories there are like this. I think of my group of friends, probably about 10 people, only 3 haven't had an experience like this.

My one friend fell asleep at a party (drunk), when 16 and a virgin, woke up to find some man raping her. My other friend accepted the offer of a drink (in the daytime) from a male friend of ours. He raped her. She was 16 he was 24.

What I don't understand though is how the male (or some male) brain works? Because if I was flirting etc and someone didn't want to have sex with me I'd immediately not want to have sex with them either, because it would be a total turn off to me. The whole 'sex' thing surely is about mutual attraction and its only erotic if they actually fancy you back and want it to happen, otherwise its just not sexy surely?

I know rape is generally about power rather than sex but is that true in these 'date rape' (sorry just trying to explain what I mean) situations as opposed to stranger rape? And why would you want to have sex with someone who either obviously doesn't want to have sex with you or obviously is trying to turn you down politely, you know they don't want to so why push it?? How is that a turn on?

I should say, by the way, that I don't feel particularly traumatised by what happened back then, now. It screwed me up when I was 16 - 20 odd I think and obviously the sleeping around afterwards was just horrible. I've only really started thinking about it again recently after reading the feminism threads and also after having dds and wanting it not to happen to them. I hate watching rape scenes on tv (why is it acceptable to have sexual violence in every bloody programme??!) and I could never have sex in a car since, not that I'm likely to want to at 35.

Sometimes if I'm having sex with DH and I'm not completely into it, ie I'm a bit tired or something, I suddenly have this urge to scream 'get off me' and I have to stop straight away.

Reading Hollaback has made me see how prevalent it is too.

Sorry, just waffling.

The power, to some, is the turn on, I think

and just utter selfishness, pure and simple

my DR would never acknowledge what he did. He will still think he is a good guy

in his mind, I gave him positive signals (taking him back to mine and snogging him), and he thought he didn't have to listen when I changed my mind when it became clear he was going to push it further whether I wanted to or not

what I wanted did not enter his head...he simply didn't care

AF - Very true, to mine I think I was one step up from a wank sock.

OP, I'm sorry . It was rape.

I think this blog post is on the money about this issue of socialisation and women's reactions to rape/sexual assault.

Excerpt:
"People wonder why women don?t ?fight back,? but they don?t wonder about it when women back down in arguments, are interrupted, purposefully lower and modulate their voices to express less emotion, make obvious signals that they are uninterested in conversation or being in closer physical proximity and are ignored. They don?t wonder about all those daily social interactions in which women are quieter, ignored, or invisible, because those social interactions seem normal. They seem normal to women, and they seem normal to men, because we were all raised in the same cultural pond, drinking the same Kool-Aid.

And then, all of a sudden, when women are raped, all these natural and invisible social interactions become evidence that the woman wasn?t truly raped."