My 9y old DD is visiting a mosque with the school & has been told to cover her head.

[Bohica]

I don't want my daughter having to wear something different than the boys have to wear & for the girls to be told to cover up whilst the boys walk freely in their own clothes.

It's going to raise questions from my DD that I am not prepared/willing to talk to her about as I strongly believe that men & women are equal.

I'm not sure how to say no without raising questions either!

See, I fnd all regions equally repellant so whilst I am happy for my children to look at the building I am not happy for them to be exposed to any superstitious claptrap, especially claptrap that oppresses women.

KriKri - I wouldn't wantmy children being exposedto ANY behavior that gave the impression that being female is shameful, and something to repent.

Repent being a woman? I've studied religions for years and never come across that idea.

If your child is old enough to understand a visit to a mosque and gain something from it then she's old enough to have a conversation aboutwhy you think its wrong for boys and girls to be treated differently

I think a very straightforward conversation with the school about whether this instruction has come from teh mosque is in order.

Colditz, I think it will be virtually impossible for you to keep your children from being exposed to any behaviour that gives the impression that being a female is shameful, or at least inferior to being male. That message is everywhere from the gender segregated toys at Hamleys and Early Learning Centre to the ingrained attitudes of many early years practitioners and teachers, from tv and magazine advertising to cartoons.

I still think it's got to be better to talk with even the youngest children about difference, about what you believe and why and equip them with the ability to question, analyse and make sense of stuff they encounter in the world. There WILL be times they encounter images, behaviour and beliefs that parents don't agree with no matter how hard they try to shield them. At least if they've had some opportunity to engage with the idea of "difference," they'll be better able to process and deal with it instead of being confused, anxious, easily-led, embarrassed or angry or other feelings that can come up in situations you aren't prepared for.

Every child at some stage will have an experience where they get the message that boys and girls, men and women are valued differently in some aspects of society. There would be no need for feminism if that were NOT the case! Just seeing that some people may regard you as superior or inferior because of your gender doesn't mean you have to swallow it wholesale. That seems to be what the fear is here, and imho, there's a greater risk that will happen if children have been denied the opportunity to experience difference, even difference parents don't like.

There is a great difference between seeing that sexism exists all around children and agreeing with a school's request that your child participate in it.

Children don't need to participate in sexism to see that it exists, and sexism is something to be afraid of.

You see, I could've done that; refused to allow DD1 to visit the mosque (it's a bloody big one in the centre of the city, not some hardline fundamentalist sect, although the headcovering demand shows how attitudes have shifted) on the grounds of sexism.

But she would have been upset as she was looking forward to going with her friend Noor.

SHould I have said to her; 'no it is sexist, you will have to stay with the other class today while the others go for a visit?' Because her classmates cover their heads..., should I take her out of school so she is not exposed to this sexist behaviour?

You have to let children see for themselves and make up their own minds, tell them your opinion and let them think for themselves.

"Children don't need to participate in sexism to see that it exists, and sexism is something to be afraid of"

Sexism is nothing to be afraid of if you are given space to come to some hard truths for yourself. If you keep a child at home and do not let them experience fleetlingly a different culture, one that is flagrantly 'sexist' then they just parrot your views and have no thoughts of their own. Or they show no interest at all because it makes no impression on their lives.

I have no issue with my child parroting my core views - things like democracy, gender equality, gay rights, racial equality and basic human rights - these are basic core beliefs of people living in a liberal democracy. I see no point in giving my children the opportunity to explore the opposing argument that denying people rights and discriminating against people is a valid perspective.

Of course sexism is something to be scared of. It leads to violence, oppression and death. That is why we have attempts to reduce the feminisation of poverty, women's shelters and rape crisis centres.

Asides from which, there is no reason to believe that a visit to a mosque is showing children a more 'flagrantly sexist' culture than the culture of wider English society. It is simply that within any culture, you as a parent have a responsibility to shield your child from having sexism perpetrated directly against them when you can.

The educational purpose of visiting a mosque should be an exploration of the meaning of spirituality - that is certainly central to the RE my children study at school. There is no reason for it to be used as a way of looking at the hard truths of sexism (when they could just choose another mosque) when there are plenty of other examples of such a hard truth much closer to home.

I find myself agreeing with you in many respects Millyr. I think my dilemma on that occasion was more about being a mother than a feminist - basically i didn't want DD1 to miss out on this trip as her whole class were going and I know she would have been upset and confused if left behind (she is 6.)

So I talked to her about it before and after the visit. In the end it was a bit of a disappointment as the children did not understand the Iman's strong accent and mosque's are pretty bare anyway, although the carpet was nice and soft apparently.

I think it raised some questions in DD1's mind about being a muslim. There are over 70 languages spoken in her school and it is about to merge with another which is 98% Pakistani muslim, first language Urdu, so maybe the school thought it right that future classmates should have some understanding of each other's culture.

On balance I am glad she went but I take your point and if it happens again I may challenge it with the headteacher.

Personally I wouldn't allow my dd to cover her head pre puberty and even after I'd struggle. However if the custom is to cover an adult woman then who am I to offend?

But to introduce this two tier social norm/religious requirement, that isn;t even required, would be something I could not bring myself to do to my daughters.

Again I find myself nodding in agreement with colditz.

Incidentally it is the ill educated men at the mosque that keep pressurising women to cover their daughter's heads. About time the Imams re educated this poor interpretation Islam. Even little girls are allowed to have free hair in Islam, it's just when they get to puberty that they are in danger of corrupting those poor men.

Sexism in Islam, as opposed to our society, is religiously lead and therefore two tier is right. Western sexism is rather more just an erosion of what is right and noone, in their right and educated mind, there is no moral code that leads to gender bias....only a lack of.

Would covering heads not be a good stimulus for a discussion of the relationship in our society between girls and clothing? I struggle to see wearing a headscarf as any more sexist than wearing high heels and short skirts.

Iggi, I agree. I would not be happy if a school sent home a letter telling me that my daughter must attend a school trip in high heels and a short skirt either.

But if DD wanted to wear a headscarf, heels or a short skirt for her own reasons, I wouldn't feel a need to make a judgement on it.

We 've had the discussion about headscarves, it didn't go well, all my dcs are completely aghast and disgusted and now keep spotting small children. It's hard to talk about understanding and tolerance around the issue too tbh, especially as we're atheists/anti theists.

My kids just think it's normal for some Muslim girls to cover their heads ( which is a shame) although the majority don't.

Yes you have made me think. I will challenge it next time.

Don't you hate it when the op doesn't come back.

I don't have any issue with other people wearing the hijab. There are lots of different reasons why they do, and it isn't necessarily for a religious reason. I see women wearing lots of different styles of them and some of the styles are really decorative and do frame the face. I can understand that many teens wear them to look attractive. It is for many women a fashion or a cultural expression, or a statement of identity - religious or cultural.

If this thread was about the hijab being oppressive in the UK, I'd say that in my experience it isn't. It is the school requiring it and it being for a supposedly religious reason about women and modesty that would make me question if I wanted my DD to wear it in such a situation, but I wouldn't see that as a reflection on women in general choosing to wear the hijab.

Sorry that I've gone on a bit on this thread!