My 9y old DD is visiting a mosque with the school & has been told to cover her head.

[Bohica]

I don't want my daughter having to wear something different than the boys have to wear & for the girls to be told to cover up whilst the boys walk freely in their own clothes.

It's going to raise questions from my DD that I am not prepared/willing to talk to her about as I strongly believe that men & women are equal.

I'm not sure how to say no without raising questions either!

Would anyone be ok with black kids being told to cover up?

I think if the OP feels so strongly that she isn't willing for her daughter to take part in the trip or cover up if she does so that's fine, but she must be willing to explain to her why, or better still, explain first and let her DD make her own mind up.

There is also a danger (and I'm not for one minute suggesting that this is the case) that others will take OP's stand to be racial rather than feminist, and simply being 'not prepared/willing to talk to her' about the issue really doesn't cut it.

Also, going back to Greythorne's response to supergreen's post:

^the different ways the different religions treat the sexes
boak boak boak^

It may well be 'boak' but it is a fact that different religions and cultures do treat men & women differently. It may not be right in 'our' opinion, but if we don't educate our children about these things how can we expect them to challenge the status quo in the future?

You can guarantee the school will not point out the subhuman treatment of women encouraged by religion and in practice Islam today is by far the worse.
It will be a lesson in 'all views are valid' and cultural relativism, in no way will it present children will the reality of forced marriage, cousin marrriage, FGM, honour killings/beheadings, marital rape and Allahs words, verbatim, stating womens testimony is worth less than a mans and inheritance should be less.

It is compulsory indoctrination and in order to learn about all these women must wear a symbol of their 'submission'

Perhaps they could make the Jewish students wear a symbol, I am given to understand Allah has strong feeling about them

Actually Islam is quite respectful of other faiths that share the Abrahamic god. Much more than Christianity is tolerant of Islam for example (from a theological standpoint that is).

I really don't understand the OP at all. My dd is 10 and has been capable of having deep and complicated conversations about the 'why' of life for years, I'd see this as an interesting opportunity to talk about religious attitudes to women. Of course I believe that men and women are equal but in general the world does not and I'd be very surprised if a 9 year old hasn't noticed that (and if they hadn't I woudl have pointed it out).

Re the trip I'd ask a few questions, but I'd still send my dd even with a headscarf, just suitably primed.

I've only read the first few posts but I couldn't agree more. When I was in Malaysia I was desperate to see inside their grand mosque but was told I'd have had to wear a chador and it was boiling. So I said stuff it, I'm not going in if DH gets to wear a TShirt and long shorts.

Actually thats total bollocks:

Islam was created after Christanity so Jesus had nothign to say on the matter and was of course Jewish when he was born and Jewish when he died

The Koran - which the words of god word for word says:

O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly makemany of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection

There is also a part thats says Jews are apes and swine made flesh- this is taught as part of the Saudi national curriculum, the C4 dispatches showed this curriculum being taught in the UK
Islam is split into various factions that routinely murder each other - shia, sunni, salafi etc etc

Can you really not see the problem with Girls alone being told they are indecent and going to a religious house that enshrines their sub male status?

Will they mention how women are treated in Muslim countrys, about the police of vice and virtue and hymen restoration and child brides? NO! They will not criticise their archaic values

They will waffle about tolerence and love in a building women arent allowed to pray beside men in and must hide their indecency.

Their is no edict in the Koran that requires it and is normally for post pubescent women so the fact they want such young girls to cover up so as not to inflame the lust of the males is pretty fucking sick.

How can the school claim to value equality then do this?

DD1 covered her head to visit a mosque. It was a good opportunity for her to learn about another religion and culture. It was also a good opportunity for her muslim classmates to share a bit of what they do, what they believe.

Head covering is not new to DD1, many of her female classmates do it every day.

I asked her why she thought onl;y the girl;s had to cover their heads. She hadn't really thought about it (she is 6) but the girls certainly enjoyed the opportunity to be the 'same' as their muslim classmates.

I can't think of any reason why a 9 year old girl would necessarily know about inequality of the sexes in the world.

Apologies somethingwittyyou are more learned than I. When I studied Islam (many years ago so it is all quite hazy) I was interested in the respect that Islam gave to other peoples who followed revealed scriptures.

However I would be amazed if an ordinary English school taught more than the absolute basics (main tenets of faith, major festivals) about any faith other than Christianity.

Personally as an atheist I am not keen on any of the messages propagated by any major religion. I don't have such a problem with the basic theology in general (although they all seem to have their share of nasty bits in their scriptures) but with the practices that have grown up over time. Plus intra-religious wars are a historical fact with most large organised faiths (probably with small ones too).

Do you really believe that hocuspontas? My children came back from nursery full of 'girls can't do x,y,z rubbish'. Then there are primary school homeworks of the find a famous scientist nature (very very few women on the list of possibilities if any). I'd be surprised if a nine year old hadn't come across casual sexism. Plus if they ever watch the news of course (granted not all nine year olds do).

Unless schools are going to show the harsh reality they should not be promoting religion- It is lies and contrary to what science has shown to be true

They just briefly waft over the briefest festivals and foods, a theme park version of religion. There are so many branches of Islam and some dont even recognise others as being Muslim it is not a true representation.

The view that a veil is just a fashionable piece of clothing totally misses the what it stands for.

Here is an email encouraging women to cover up and the views behind it
like flys to a lollipop

Why are you STRONGLY opposed to it? the women choose to wear the head scarves and it is only fair to respect other peoples choices it doesnt harm anyone! I think it is a great oppourtunity for your dd to learn and experience other cultures! by having this 'issue' you are highlighting the differences which needn't be highlighted!

YS, the OP is respecting other people's choices. She isn't asking other people's children not to wear a headscarf. She is asking other people to respect her choice for her daughter not to wear one. Why don't you respect her choice?

And is it any of our business to be questioning women on why they choose to wear or not wear a particular item of clothing or why they feel strongly about it? Shouldn't we stop expecting women's clothing to have to be explained and justified?

Ti e for me to leave now the debate has decsended to islam bashing. Change the record.

somethingwitty82 that is a jihad website, they are extreme and do not share the views of the majority of muslims! there are extremists in every religion, the nazi's of the world so dont assume what they believe all muslims believe!

MillyR thats really not what she has said, if that was the case she wouldnt have a problem talking to her dd about it and she wouldnt say she was so against it! you cant respect someones choice while being strongly against it!

I think it's a bit pathetic TBH to quibble about whirl wearing s headscarf to a mosque.

I think my daughter is better served exploring other views and cultures in growing up as an independent woman. I just asked her to think about it. She was surprised the women had to pray separately to the men.

I think it's very important she learns as much as she canfirst hand about these issues as she already says things like " so and so play together because they are Muslims." The divide is already there.

BTW I was required covered my chest and arms (but not my head) when visiting mosques and temples in the middle east. dP was required tocover his head in the Holocaust museum in Jerusalem. We both did out of politeness even though we don't believe in any God.

Sorry 'girls' not 'whirls'

Of course you can respect somebody else's choice while being strongly against wanting to do it yourself! That is the nature of democracy.

I thought men had to cover their heads in a mosque, too. Certainly when we attended my muslim grandmother's funeral, all the men in the main part of the mosque were wearing hats.

nooka, my 3 dds are all teenagers and I can't think of any instance off the top of my head where they have indicated to me that they have felt boys are 'better'.

I work in an infant school and any children making sexist comments are dealt with immediately!

Is a link to referring France24 website.

Head covering is political and allowing it schools is bad enough and was clearly a slippery slope, with every concession comes another request.i.e. the weightlifter who wanted to cover knees and elbows , got it , now wants a freaking hijab!!!!

No liberal democracy can allow women to have this enforced on them by the state. Ataturk understood the dangers

Somethingwitty - religion is lies and has been disproved by science? How exactly?

somethingwitty, you are being highly selective and deeply offensive in your description of the "ills" of Islam.

The Old Testament is choc full of references to the inferiority of women and that they are unclean during a period. Orthodox Jewish men still recite that prayer in the morning about being glad not to be born female and have special beds that pull apart so they will not become "unclean" by sleeping in the same bed as their wives during menstruation.

The New Testament is little better with regard to the position of women. It actually states that women are supposed to cover their head (and some Christian groups like the Amish still follow this,) and must obey their husbands. For several centuries, Christian scholars weren't even convinced women had souls like men did.

So there is a tradition in nearly all major religions for women to be regarded as different and sometimes inferior. Most faiths have also been engaged in conflict at some time with people of a different faith, perhaps just using religion as the excuse for a politically or economically motivated conflict.

Anyhoo, has the op got back yet to say whether it was a mix up of the school or what she's going to decide?

I agree, religions are shit, so dont take them to religous places.And definitely dont make them wear visible symbols of their subservient status. Or make the boys wear it as well.

Probably not a misunderstanding, it is well established

Dhimmitude

Could the school not find a less extreme mosque?