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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

My 9y old DD is visiting a mosque with the school & has been told to cover her head.

167 replies

Bohica · 30/06/2011 21:09

I don't want my daughter having to wear something different than the boys have to wear & for the girls to be told to cover up whilst the boys walk freely in their own clothes.

It's going to raise questions from my DD that I am not prepared/willing to talk to her about as I strongly believe that men & women are equal.

I'm not sure how to say no without raising questions either!

OP posts:
Becaroooo · 01/07/2011 18:16

I took my Beavers group to the local synagogue and the boys were asked to cover their heads....not one of the girls asked why and not one of the parents had a problem with it.

For me, its about respecting anothers religion. If the OPs dd cant do that/doesnt want to do that, then she shouldnt go.

wrongdecade · 01/07/2011 18:22

And as for "Riven will have an interesting and informed opinion on this". I find that patronising; identification politics par excellence. Can't we all have an interesting and informed opinion on this without being muslim?

Is Riven Muslim? If so itsn ot really patronising that her opinion on Islam will be more informed than someone who isn't its more of a fact.

MillyR · 01/07/2011 18:25

I would estimate that there have been about 100 times my kids have had to do something at school or in some sort of group situation that I have had a problem with, but didn't mention to whoever was in charge, because it just isn't worth constantly getting into conflict with people. Looking at the MN threads, not saying anything to the school seems to be a common response. But most of these things could be avoided if a bit more thought was put in by the person organising things.

Having said that, I am really pleased with the kind of PSHE DS is doing in secondary school. It seems to be mainly primary schools that don't think things through, and I think that is due to the size of primary schools. A smaller number of staff leads to a smaller amount of expertise, and so things aren't always thought through.

ohanotherone · 01/07/2011 18:50

I visited a Silkh temple with a friend and was asked to remove my shoes and wear a scarf. The men and women pray separately and both sexes wear some head covering. I did wear a scarf but not well enough and it kept slipping off....not conciously...I couldn't help feeling that was because in my heart, I don't agree with covering my hair up...I would feel the same in any religious institution though. Loved the visit, the ladies who give food to anyone who enters were lovely. Got filthy looks outside the temple (head scarf still slipping off) from some younger men though as I am blonde and probably next to a prostitute in their eyes....my friend explained that in certain circles, blondes are considered as such. It was in a very large area which is fairly segrated from the wider community. He said that when he next sees them he would explain that I am the newest meber of his harem...Grin. That doesn't help you at all but I think if the Mosque are showing people around they should explain why a 9 year old girl needs to wear a scarf. You could always ring them/visit and ask if it is right. I got told all sorts at university about what people of certain cultures do or expect others to do and in practice I found that it really depends on the people or sub section of a particular community rather than a sweeping statements about muslims do this or Sikhs do that....

PacificDogwood · 01/07/2011 19:13

V interesting opinions and experiences on this thread.

On here as in RL I just cannot quite follow how het up some people can get about this and other issues.

As others have said, the OP's choices are quite simple: allow her daughter on the trip accepting that she will be asked to cover her head (assuming that that is in fact a 'rule' enforced by this particular mosque and not the school making assumptions) and use this as a discussion point. Or not send her.

I do agree that various forms of dress enforced on females around the world are oppressive and sexist and a tool to enforce male control and superiority.
And I'd also concur that wearing a headscarf in these circumstances is not just a piece of cloth but has meaning.

I just fail to see how agreeing to wear a headscarf on this one occasion, is an endorsement of sexist practices as a whole?
When a 9 year old girl with her school class on a no doubt interesting trip does it??

A degree of pragmatism over feminist theory would be constructive IMO.

Gooseberrybushes · 01/07/2011 19:51

Millyr: lots of sense and clarity there.

It's really the school's fault - but I have to say, the same problem would arise with a teenage visit to the Mosque and there wouldn't then be any option about head covering. It would be a very, very clear representation of how differently the sexes are seen.

I don't even think you have to see yourself as a very pro-active feminist to have a problem with this.

Britain has moved on a great deal and now has an impressive track record on tolerance and respect. Just look at this school's over-reaction for example. I really don't think any prejudice is involved, or guilt is due, over finding this questionable.

Riveninside · 01/07/2011 20:58

I am still wondering if the school has it wrong. No mosque i know asks for girls, whether before or afterr puberty to wear a scarf, who are just visiting to learn. Like i said, my 19 yo has come to the mosque with me when ive gone to pray and not an eye row has been raised. She isnt muslim. And tnese are strange mosques to me.

verylittlecarrot · 01/07/2011 21:13

I agree with MillyR and Colditz. One can be respectful of different religions and I would have an issue not with headcovering if ALL the children were required to do it. I do have a problem with the principle that exposed boys' hair is acceptable, but exposed girls' hair is...what?

What exactly is the religious or cultural explanation for why ONLY girls?

MillyR · 01/07/2011 21:37

I've just looked it up on the Islamic Awareness & Education Project website, which organises school visits to mosques. The dress code for visitors is the same for boys and girls. There is no requirement to wear a headscarf.

PacificDogwood · 01/07/2011 22:12

Of course the fact that only girls have been asked to cover their hair is sexist
But - would I for that reason not let my fictious daughter go on the trip? No.

And it does sound as if it is quite likely that the school is making ill-informed assumptions anyway

amirah85 · 01/07/2011 22:18

about young girls wearing headscarf,they are not required to until they reach puberty but often little girls ask to wear it as they like to imitate the mother,as well many parents encourage children from about 7 to start to practice the religion,so they get the hang of it by the time they reach puberty

rosy71 · 01/07/2011 22:18

I took my class (7-9 year olds) to visit a mosque a few years ago and we were told by the mosque that both boys and girls would need to have their heads covered. A hat was fine though, it didn't need to be a head scarf. One of the girls did ask the man showing us round why they had to cover their heads. Unfortunately I can't remember his reply Blush. I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's not as if your dd is being asked to becme a muslim!

colditz · 01/07/2011 22:20

Why would they need to get the hang of it?

smallwhitecat · 01/07/2011 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

dittany · 01/07/2011 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bunbaker · 01/07/2011 23:24

We live in an area of so little cultural diversity that DD's school only managed to visit a C of E church and a methodist chapel. We have no mosques, synagogues or Sikh/Hindu temples in our area at all. She has studied Hinduism and Buddism at school but I think it is a shame that she has never had the opportunity to learn about other cultures and religions other than from books.

Greythorne · 02/07/2011 08:41

wrongdecade
A muslim may be able to bring some factual info to the discussion, but the idea that a muslim will bring some nugget of insight just by virtue of being a muslim is pure identity politics at play. I can spot a pile of sexism for myself and I don't need anybody of any religious persuasion to explain or justify it, thanks all the same.

When women / girls are treated differently to men / boys for no other reason than fear or superstition, that's what we call sexism.

Riveninside · 02/07/2011 08:44

Theres a difference between cuktural practices and what thr religion asks for. But i still reckon the school has it wrong. A mosque that encourages school visits isnt going to do anything to make non muslim parents froth given the rising islamaphobia. Dd went a few weeks back, scarves never mentioned.

supergreenuk · 02/07/2011 08:46

Surly it's all part of learning about the culture. she will learn why she is covering up and the different ways religions treat the sexes. It doesn't mean it means anything to her or that she will buy into it.

crumpet · 02/07/2011 08:50

If you go to visit churches in Italy, (eg St Mark's in Venice) the rules posted are no shorts or bare shoulders (men and women) and I think ladies must cover their heads too

DumSpiroSpero · 02/07/2011 08:54

I agree with kittens. The image of Islam portrayed by the media is very different from the reality. A lot of the customs we as Westerners view as 'anti-women' are actually cultural traditions and not based in religion at all.

I'm practising C of E but would follow whatever is required if I was to visit another place of worship - it's about manners and respect. I have learnt a little about Islam recently having got back in touch with an old friend whose DH is a Muslim, and also through researching for a story I'm writing. It's a really fascinating subject - it would be a shame for your DD to miss out on broadening her horizons if you don't allow her to take part.

At 9 her life is going to soon be full of awkward questions so you may as well get used it!

Greythorne · 02/07/2011 09:03

supergreenuk
you do realise you are posting on the feminism board, don't you?

Greythorne · 02/07/2011 09:04

the different ways the different religions treat the sexes
boak boak boak

Please get a grip before posting on this board.

Greythorne · 02/07/2011 09:07

Crumpet

Men and women have to be dressed modestly in St Mark's for example. Women do not have to coverbtheir heads.

crumpet · 02/07/2011 09:12

Wasn't sure about heads so I did qualify it :)

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