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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Was Bristol Palin raped?

943 replies

darleneoconnor · 20/06/2011 11:16

according to this bristol palin was so drunk when she conceived her son that she doesn't remember having sex.

Sounds like rape to me.

Then she was basically 'forced' to marry her rapist? WTF! Sometimes America sounds more like the middle east!

Quite a few forums are discussing this, with some

disgusting rape myths on this forum

OP posts:
TrilllianAstra · 22/06/2011 11:30

Whatever happened to Bristol I feel very sorry for her.

Either she was raped (even if she doesn't think of it that way) or she had consensual sex but feels that she can't admit to it because of her family's beliefs and/or position in society.

ihavenewsockson · 22/06/2011 12:06

Sorry- what's PIV?

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 12:10

None of us was there.

None of us know:

  1. Whether Bristol was drunk
  2. Whether Levi was drunk
  3. Who did what to whom in the tent
  4. Who said what to whom afterwards
  5. Why they did or didn't do whatever they may or may not have done.

This whole thread is supposition and prejudiced nonsense (apart from the general points that are non-specific to Bristol and Levi). It is dangerous to build a case, any case, on prejudice. Ask the Birmingham Six et al.

MrsReasonable · 22/06/2011 12:23

dittany I did read her account, or rather the summary of her account which OP linked, and can't find what you mean.

Where does she claim that "He had a memory of what happened. She didn't"? You're asserting this, but I can't find any evidence for it. Is it just that he was talking about it to his friends? Oh, well, no guy has ever lied about having sex to his friends.

TheBossofMe · 22/06/2011 12:24

If you follow that logic, Hully, how would anyone get prosecuted for date rape?

TwoIfBySea · 22/06/2011 12:26

Thank you Hullygully, first sensible post on this thread.

I was trying to make a similar point about the danger of making allegations but apparently that equated to calling her a liar!

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 12:26

Boss - I really am too staggered to even start with that one.

karmakameleon · 22/06/2011 12:33

Basically Hully, you are saying that her witness statement counts for nothing. She says she was drunk. Whether he was drunk or not is irrelevant to this conversation because it does not absolve criminal responsibility. He told her he had sex with her because she doesn't remember.

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 12:38

karma - she hasn't made a witness statement.

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 12:40

Bristol Palin has revealed that she lost her virginity to Levi Johnston while drunk.

The former Dancing with the Stars contestant made the revelation in her forthcoming memoir Not Afraid of Life: My Journey So Far, in which she refers to her ex-fiancé Johnston as "a gnat".

Us Weekly quotes Palin as revealing that, after getting drunk for the first time on wine coolers during a camping trip, she ended up losing her virginity.

However, Palin claims that she later woke up alone in the tent with no recollection of what had happened, while Johnston was outside talking and joking with his friends.

The single mum insisted that the two later agreed to abstain until they were married, but that they eventually relented and had sex again.

Palin also claimed that she took around eight home pregnancy tests before believing that she was actually pregnant, due to the fact that she had been taking birth control pills to treat stomach cramps.

The above is all we know and all that this thread is based on.

karmakameleon · 22/06/2011 12:40

I don't mean in a legal sense, I mean in the sense that she has written about what happened and is a witness.

MrsReasonable · 22/06/2011 12:51

karmakameleon

I think Hullygully is saying that we shouldn't be throwing around accusations of rape when the only information we have is a summary of a 'witness statement' from someone who doesn't even remember what happened. Yet people seem to be asserting 'yes, he should be in prison' when they have no clue what happened.

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 12:59

Mrs, not quite that. Just that we literally don't know the truth about ANY of it. (See points 1-5 above)

StewieGriffinsMom · 22/06/2011 13:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsReasonable · 22/06/2011 13:09

"if she was too drunk to remember, she was too drunk to consent"

No. Not necessarily. Not remembering the event doesn't necessarily mean that you weren't able to give valid consent at the time.

Perhaps they were only tipsy when they had sex, but continued drinking afterwards, and thus the whole night was forgotten? Who knows? We don't.

karmakameleon · 22/06/2011 15:30

Are people saying that if alcohol is involved and the victim doesn't remember what happened, best to assume consent in the absence of other witnesses, as she might have consented and just doesn't remember?

Does the same logic apply to other date rape drugs apart from alcohol? Do victims who were given Rohypnol also need to be treated with the same degree of scepticism?

TheBossofMe · 22/06/2011 15:36

Seems so, doesn't it karma.

I for one find that an offensive pov.

Riveninside · 22/06/2011 15:39

Best to assume nothing really rather than label a man a rapist. Neither remember. They were too drunk.
I would assume two drunk teenagers. It seems like everyone wants to finger point but gawd, drunk teens have drunk barely remembered sex all the time.

MrsReasonable · 22/06/2011 15:45

TheBossofMe

You find innocent until proven guilty an offensive point of view?!

karmakameleon · 22/06/2011 15:47

Men and teenage boys should be taught that women and teenage girls who are drunk are not able to consent to sex. They should not have sex with drunk women unless they know damn well that the woman would have consented when sober.

If the man is drunk he should be aware that it does not absolve him of criminal responsibility. If he does not trust himself not to rape drunk girls when he's been drinking, he should avoid alcohol.

Men rape drunk women all the time. They shouldn't be able to write it off as "normal" drunk barely remembered sex.

TheBossofMe · 22/06/2011 15:56

No I find assuming the girl must be lying offensive

I find ignoring the law that states that drunk people can't consent to sex offensive

I find the behaviour of teenage boys who think it's ok to shag a drunk girl offensive.

I find the pov that if you can't remember, the default position is that consent must have been given at the time offensive.

StewieGriffinsMom · 22/06/2011 15:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrsReasonable · 22/06/2011 16:02

I think that's a good idea karmakameleon, but shouldn't it be taught to all genders? If being drunk vitiates consent, then wouldn't sober women who sleep be drunk men also be rapists (not legally of course, due to the UK's penis requirement, but morally)?

Also, there is a lot of education already not to have sex with drunk girls for boys, and for drunk girls not to feel pressured into doing it.

Hullygully · 22/06/2011 16:08

We don't know if either/both were drunk

We don't know anything

Assumptions are terribly dangerous

TheBossofMe · 22/06/2011 16:08

Of course it should be taught to all genders. But since we are in the feminism section, you don't mind I'm sure if we focus on how women are negatively impacted by this and leave the what about the menz bit for a different section. Plus of course the fact that for many men, being drunk means no erection, so the likelihood of a woman forcing a drunk man to have penetrative sex is rather less than vice versa