My teenage dd and the clothes she wants to wear...help me out please

[AnyFucker]

This is a kind of follow-up from the "what you wear might make men want to rape you" argument on another thread

Of course, I am a fully card-carrying member of "women should wear what they like and not have to suffer unwelcome attention" group

But here is my dilemma..

My dd is 15. She has big breasts for her frame. She likes to wear low cut, tight vest tops which I really have to bit my tongue about as her boobs are very much on display. She also wants to wear these tiny little strapless playsuit thingies that have to be worn without a bra. It looks like at any moment she is going to fall out of the one she insisted on buying (with her own, earned money from a PT job)

Do I pull my parental muscle and ban the wearing of such items bearing in mind she is living in my house, under my care. She is 15 and fairly streetwise but wouldn't cope with any serious sexual predation (of course). As part of her job, she was subjected to some unwelcome attention from an older bloke and she absolutely freaked out.

But still she wants to wear these clothes, and I know (as much as I rail against it, intellectually) that it isn't right.

I know this post is absolutely chockfull of hypocrisy and stupidity, btw, but am in a right old muddle.

What do I say to her, without

1. knocking her confidence

2. banning said clothes outright (we shouldn't have to do that, should we ? should we ???)

Am I taking the concept of wearing what you like and Fuck the Patriarchy too far and overthinking this ? Or by letting her wear relatively revealing clothes, am I failing in my duty as her mother ?

Now be aware these are perfectly ordinary clothes you can buy all over the high street, that thousands of other teenagers are wearing too. That is why she wants them, of course. Nothing she wears is at all overtly sexy, it's just how it looks to me, IYSWIM. I see my DH wincing sometimes too, and he is very feminist-minded. I guess he is mindreading others

Help me sort this out please. < sob >

Apropos of nothing really, but I really snapped yesterday in sainsbos cafe (of all places!) at 3 blokes in their 20s who were saying vile things in earshot.

Me and dd were collecting cutlery, and about 4 feet behind us were sat these lads. The muttered (but in earshot and they knew they could hear us because of the sniggering) 'which one do you want to sit on your face' and 'i wouldn't mind boning the one with dark hair, she looks like a virgin, bet she tkes it up the arse' snigger snigger.

I NEVER confront people in public and am not a temper temper type of person, but dd was so bloody mortified I snapped and went and leant on the table in front of them and said 'don't you DARE say such vile stuff about my daughter, you disgusting, filthy bastards, keep your vile mouths shut'

And walked off to oooooooooh etc etc.

I was shaking for ages. I never lose my cool like that. It was just the look on dd's face, she looked so embarassed. She said I should have kept my mouth shut.

This was sainsburys, 6pm, deserted apart from me, dd and these blokes, I had jeans and a top, dd had her PE kit on from school (so tracksuit and aertex top). They were very loud and blatant and were doing it for a reaction.

I know I have probably made a mountain out of a molehill and it was only words and I should have IGNORED but what bloody excuse is there for that? And now dd thinks I am an arse probably.

The one with dark hair is my dd btw, didn't make that clear.

Good for you!

What morons those blokes were.

I know, but afterwards felt like a complete tool. I didn't shout but used my best 'excuse me this is not a knocking shop' voice (used on stepson when he lived with us and bought back drunken girls at silly o clock).

DD said I should have left it, I am afraid I treated her to a feminist rant on how why SHOULD we put up with it (inspired by this thread and others probably, I blame dittany ) and I was so bloody angry.

Was too cross to eat my chips and cheese, what a fricking waste [fumes]

Good for you. Did you see that blog about rape, explaining how the accepted silencing of women leads them to not protest when being sexually attacked? Bloody good for you, GOMC.

Worst thing, dd 'there is no point complaining about it, it makes them worse'

I said what did she mean? 'oh mum for god's sake stop the crusade, they say worse that this every day at school, there is no point in kicking off about it'

No I didn't see that blog speedy - do you have a link at ll? Thanks

GOMC, she is right, actually

there is much worse said as a matter of course, every single day

that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge it when we see it

Hope this link works, GOMC. It's very thought-provoking stuff.

AF as a girl who had frankly ENORMOUS tits as a young thing, and never worked out that it didn't mean I was "fat and disgusting" (size 12-14, back in the day - and hated myself! Essh) or that "men were awful about it" etc - please please please take your DD to Bravissimo and get her some well-fitted things (they do shirts and whatnot now). Not just bras, though god I won't buy anywhere else, but they do tank tops and button-down shirts that won't gape and make you look both covered and good.

The majority of clothes aren't made for the fantastically endowed, and I felt v. left out of fashion as a teen, as a result. Luckily for me it was the 90s and so I could wear grungey unisex things, but for her - good bras, good bras, good bras and some nice, well-covering AND flattering tops.

I wanted to write something more feminist but everyone else has done so much good stuff that I just thought I'd add something on the practicalities front. Being able to wear clothes that fit the bodies we have bloody well is a feminist issue, too. Men who make clothes for women punish the teens who aren't stick-thin with no boobs, so the poor girls are either all on display or draped in bagginess. Good bras! And she might discover how a well-fitting top doesn't have to be massively revealing to make you look fab if you've got lots up top.

I just find it so distressing when girls dress like this. Of course they should be able to dress as they wish and they should be able to walk down the street in a peephole bra and crotcless knickers and be perfectly safe. But I get so angry that they want to. As if they aren't beautiful enough without being a man's fantasy.

God I am just an old fart

I don't think I am cut out for the 21st century...

I'll join you in the Victorian era then, Orm

Ormirian: god, I am an old gimmer myself and spend a lot of time saying "She needs a proper foundational garment" or "he'll catch his death without his vest" to myself. But it's also true that most of the fashionable/afforable shops for teens (I'm looking at YOU, H&M) just don't fit the well-endowed, so they're left with things hanging out all over the place and it's just so unfair, as the better made (and better fitting) stuff can be frumpy or just more expensive than the average teen wants to wear.
[bee in bonnet emoticon clearly needed here]

It was great being a teenage girl in the nineties: east german army surplus shirts over (band) t-shirts, navy doc martins, dark blue jeans, a hippy dippy shoulder bag and the stink of patchouli and we were ready for anything! And when we did put on makeup (masses of eyeliner sometimes, just lip balm othertimes) it was fun and meant to 'make a statement' - not produce a perfect tan. . . I used to have to wear a skirt for school, wouldn't have dreamed of wearing one in my time off. perhaps it mattered that me and my mates had read "a room of one's own" and "the female Eunuch" by sixth form - but it just makes me so sad that their ideas of what's attractive have been so entirely co-opted by the male gaze. Toxic culture indeed.

Getorf, what an awful situation. I think you handled it well. Good on you for not just walking away.

I have read this thread with interest, as I have a dd11 and she too is very polite. I just have to hope that my grumpiness assertiveness has rubbed off!

I agree Ormirian, it seems that the choice argument seems to relate only to revealing clothes designed to attract attention.

It's a shame the choice argument doesn't extend to young girls feeling they can wear what they like even if it's unfashionable, individual, unlikely to flash a lot of flesh. But then I dress as I like (think Helena Bonham Carter but more chaotic) I never felt the need to conform to a stereotypical female image to attract male attention. I could have and I know what the likely result would be, more unwanted attention.

Young people are surrounded by media images and messages that tell them they have to conform to be successful, attractive and accepted. Girls are being sold the idea that by dressing in a way that attracts male attention they are somehow more liberated. How much of these ideas are encouraged and endorsed by the patriarchy? Women should be safe what ever they wear but young girls often lack the self awareness and the skills to deal with unwanted attention.

Excellent feminist advice here about discussing potential consequences of outfit with daughters.

To add a practical note I absolutely second the Bravissimo advice. I'm a 32 F and dressed badly as a youngster. Finding Bravissimo and well fitting bras changed my life. A good bra can actually minimise attention to big boobs and their clothes are beautifully cut to show off your waist while properly covering / doing-up over cleavage. Personally I dont think they are frumpy, although I concede more expensive than Primark. www.bravissimo.com/pepperberry/products/tops/

Good luck with your DD, AnyFucker.

And WELL DONE to the mum who snapped in the Sainsbos cafe - your DD may have been embarrassed now but you have given her a template of a woman speaking up for herself and in the future I bet she will come to admire & cherish your display of mother-lioness-ness!

I too have a similar issue with our 14 yr old - it is all coming from the TV with the previously Disney Channel queens like Hannah Montana and Selina Gomez baring nearly all in videos. Instead of lecturing her, ASK her what she would think if she saw herself in the street - 1/ someone who was sexually experienced already or 2/ someone who was just happy in themselves? Telling never really works - ask her how she feels first and the image she is giving out.