My teenage dd and the clothes she wants to wear...help me out please

[AnyFucker]

This is a kind of follow-up from the "what you wear might make men want to rape you" argument on another thread

Of course, I am a fully card-carrying member of "women should wear what they like and not have to suffer unwelcome attention" group

But here is my dilemma..

My dd is 15. She has big breasts for her frame. She likes to wear low cut, tight vest tops which I really have to bit my tongue about as her boobs are very much on display. She also wants to wear these tiny little strapless playsuit thingies that have to be worn without a bra. It looks like at any moment she is going to fall out of the one she insisted on buying (with her own, earned money from a PT job)

Do I pull my parental muscle and ban the wearing of such items bearing in mind she is living in my house, under my care. She is 15 and fairly streetwise but wouldn't cope with any serious sexual predation (of course). As part of her job, she was subjected to some unwelcome attention from an older bloke and she absolutely freaked out.

But still she wants to wear these clothes, and I know (as much as I rail against it, intellectually) that it isn't right.

I know this post is absolutely chockfull of hypocrisy and stupidity, btw, but am in a right old muddle.

What do I say to her, without

1. knocking her confidence

2. banning said clothes outright (we shouldn't have to do that, should we ? should we ???)

Am I taking the concept of wearing what you like and Fuck the Patriarchy too far and overthinking this ? Or by letting her wear relatively revealing clothes, am I failing in my duty as her mother ?

Now be aware these are perfectly ordinary clothes you can buy all over the high street, that thousands of other teenagers are wearing too. That is why she wants them, of course. Nothing she wears is at all overtly sexy, it's just how it looks to me, IYSWIM. I see my DH wincing sometimes too, and he is very feminist-minded. I guess he is mindreading others

Help me sort this out please. < sob >

AF- Have POV with your DD and let her know where you re coming from, and it need not be a sit down lets have a "chat" but maybe more of a drip drip influence.

A phrase I re-call from my teen years from my parents was this -"we trust you, we know you make the right decisions, it is all the other people out there we worry about" I feel that that is parenting in a nutshell, you know your kid, but it is all the unknown stuff out there that you have little control over that is hard to deal with. I think my parents got it spot on with that line- as much as I felt they were feeding me a line- I also took on board that there were people out there that might want to hurt me, take advantage of me. I dressed in next to nothing, but was a cautious drinker, never took drugs. I always wanted to retain some element of control.

As parents all we can really do is give plenty of love, information and support and hope to hell it makes a difference.

am reading but having trouble posting x

"The concept of wearing what you like and Fuck the Patriarchy" sounds a bit hollow when you consider that a young girl flashing her body around is exactly what the Patriarchy wants to see. Speak of fucking the patriarchy--it could well be on their minds.

She may know the line about "breasts could start to sag" would be false, so that's bad for parental credibility. (They might, but that'll happen bra or not.)

I'd say the best thing would be to point out that what's bordering on exhibitionism for one woman is nothing special on another, and that's just down to her body versus her friend's. But what she'll be doing is attracting sexualized attention from boys her own age all the way up to men decades older, and does she really want that? Insert a reminder of the unwelcome attention she got at work. And say that's not a worry for a 5-year-old, and really you're not treating her as one, but she's not an adult woman either, but she's starting to get responses based on an adult woman's body, and that worries you.

bump

my MN is playing up badly, please keep the responses coming, they are helping immensely

It is very hard to find clothes that do not either reveal part of your breasts or make you look frumpy, if you have large breasts. Fashionable clothes are designed for people who are skinny everywhere.

Perhaps one way of approaching it is to try and find teenage clothing that would look good, rather than seeking to ban what she has chosen.

Ultimately, many men respond particularly inappropriately to women with large breasts, and this will remain the case whatever she wears.

Practically speaking, I have no idea (have a 7yo, and wish she'd just stay that way for another five years or so) but find it interesting you talk about not knocking her self-esteem (and admirable, of course). I had big boobs as a teenager, and before hitting the baggy grungy phase in my late teens I dressed very much to draw attention to them - and that was all about super-low self-esteem. I hope she doesn't feel that way - but any way you have of letting her know that any attention she gets for her boobs alone is attention she's better off without, would be good.

this is also now a style/beauty thread

have just had a chat with dd and cleared the air after our earlier argument

we talked about my worries about how she will deal with any unwanted male attention, which is my main concern I think when I examined my discomfort

I stressed her clothes choices should never make her to blame but that she is rather young to be dealing with the possible consequences (which we all now are constantly out there)

and that any issues are other people's problem, but that she will still have to deal with the fall-out. That hit a nerve, because she has a very burly friend who is a boy but he won't always be around will he ?

so we explored ways to stand up for yourself, and when to recognise that being rude is ok sometimes if it will extricate you from something you are not comfortable with (she has a real fear of appearing rude...I dunno where she gets it from )

there was a bit of huffing and puffing, but she did say she knew what I was talking about eventually

good result ?

I think so, but definitely a work in progress

thanks all

mum first, feminist second at least until she is 18 is the message I get loud and clear

any attention she gets for her boobs alone is attention she's better off without

really good pint, DCMB, will remember that for next time

point

I don't think there is a contradiction between what you are saying and being a feminist at all.

I don't believe that what a woman wears increases their likelihood of being a victim of sexually assault. But what you wear can increase your likelihood of being propositioned by men, and at 15 you might not be very skilled at dealing with that.

I don't agree with people telling women what to wear; in much the same way I don't agree with people telling women where they can live or what they should do with their time. But I agree with mothers telling 15 year old daughters what they can wear, where they can live, and what they can do with their time (within reason). There is no contradiction there with feminism.

I think it is a really good idea to put it in style and beauty, because you will get lots of practical tips on what looks good and strikes a balance.

As a feminist, you can also teach her about the strength and support being with a group of other females will give her.
My daughter has a couple of friends that dress along Lady Gaga lines, and one is quite naive about the reactions she gets from men. But her friends are a strong and proactive group that will challenge inappropriate behaviour when they are out as a group.

I have had this discussion with my 15 year old AnyF.

She is not normally a girly girl, spends most of her time in trackie she has bottoms and hoodies, but since getting a boyfriend she has started to be a bit girly.

She arranged to meet her BF in town and wore one of my tops, which was incredibly low cut. I normally wear it with a vest underneath, she didn't. It was really too much. I asked her to go and put something else on, she got really huffy puffy and accused me of thinking she was dressed like a slag . I didn't say any such thing, I just said that it was inappropriate.

I did say that I didn't want her to wear low cut revealing stuff when she is only 15, because I think she is too young to deal with the attention that it will bring. I don't know if that was the right thing to say or not. But hate the thought of some lech leering over her in the city or something.

Oh not much advice here AnyF I am clueless really, it does feel very uncomfortable doesn't it?

she has the "never be separated from your friends for any reason" message drummed into her constantly

hard, isn't it ?

you are right milly, I was overthinking it

I wouldn't press that message onto an adult woman, but I am still responsible for her as the child she is, so drum I will

I also said to her that I feel bloody awful when some dick hangs his head out of a van and says something lechy. And I am in my 30s. I said that I don't want her to feel uncomfortable.

'I will just get a burka then mum' she snapped

I felt bloody awful because I know that she is feeling very self conscious about her burgeoning sexuality and I don't want to ride roughshod over her wanting to experiment with that and her personal style.

Toddler tantrums in the supermarket were easy compared to this

This is another variation on trying to get her to wear a coat when it is snowing with added angst

glad to see you here, GOML

the "boyfriend" thing is for another thread (some issues there too )

when we talked, I made it clear I wasn't insinuating that she was dressing like a slag, but hard to get the message quite clear enough to a sulky, hormonal teenager in the middle of GCSE stress

they are very black and white at this age...doubly hard to communicate with

On a practical note - highly recommend wonderbra (god sounds wrong to be writing that on the feminist section) ultimate strapless bras, miles ahead of anything else. Multiways don't excel in any way if you've got big boobs.

I know socka, veering off the point a bit here (bear with us, die-hard feministas )

I wonder if I could get her interested in some dungarees < muses >

There are some in Topshop at the moment!

Exactly - I was making sure that I wasn't saying that she looked anything like a slag (I remember my gran calling me a slag heap when I was 14 and wore a bodysuit which was ever so slightly low cut, and saying that I was going to be sleeping with every Tom, Dick and Harry if I went out 'gallivanting' in that ) but like you say, they are black and white and seem to hear what they want to hear sometimes.

I am very happy with dd's boyfriend, he is very caring and they get on well. I am also pleased that she hasn't dumped all her friends, she doesn't see him every free moment like I feared, and they go to different schools. But all over her facebook it is 'I love you so much' etc. At the moment all is well, but if they finish, it will be all romeo and juliet round here.

Dd has stolen some of my vests with bras built in (cost about a fiver in Primark or Asda) - they give coverage without looking like a bra, and look good under jumpsuits etc.

that wouldn't work for us

she outboobs me by loads

she definitely needs a proper bra, with proper support

I am baulking at buying strapless ones though

she is only 15 !

bloody hell, if she knew I was talking about her like this ...

She would KIIIIIIIL you.

My dd always says 'you don't talk about me on mumsnet do you?'

Asda do a nice range in large cup bras, I have noticed. DD is the same size as me, but about 4 inches north