My teenage dd and the clothes she wants to wear...help me out please

[AnyFucker]

This is a kind of follow-up from the "what you wear might make men want to rape you" argument on another thread

Of course, I am a fully card-carrying member of "women should wear what they like and not have to suffer unwelcome attention" group

But here is my dilemma..

My dd is 15. She has big breasts for her frame. She likes to wear low cut, tight vest tops which I really have to bit my tongue about as her boobs are very much on display. She also wants to wear these tiny little strapless playsuit thingies that have to be worn without a bra. It looks like at any moment she is going to fall out of the one she insisted on buying (with her own, earned money from a PT job)

Do I pull my parental muscle and ban the wearing of such items bearing in mind she is living in my house, under my care. She is 15 and fairly streetwise but wouldn't cope with any serious sexual predation (of course). As part of her job, she was subjected to some unwelcome attention from an older bloke and she absolutely freaked out.

But still she wants to wear these clothes, and I know (as much as I rail against it, intellectually) that it isn't right.

I know this post is absolutely chockfull of hypocrisy and stupidity, btw, but am in a right old muddle.

What do I say to her, without

1. knocking her confidence

2. banning said clothes outright (we shouldn't have to do that, should we ? should we ???)

Am I taking the concept of wearing what you like and Fuck the Patriarchy too far and overthinking this ? Or by letting her wear relatively revealing clothes, am I failing in my duty as her mother ?

Now be aware these are perfectly ordinary clothes you can buy all over the high street, that thousands of other teenagers are wearing too. That is why she wants them, of course. Nothing she wears is at all overtly sexy, it's just how it looks to me, IYSWIM. I see my DH wincing sometimes too, and he is very feminist-minded. I guess he is mindreading others

Help me sort this out please. < sob >

Am roaring at the body suits (not in that way)

I have spent a fun 10 minutes on the thong site.

I think that they are applying the cock rings to enhance what they have got.

Never thought I would type that sentence

Snippet of info on the teenboys = ludicrous trousers situation.

I heard that the fashion comes from the US, where when you are arrested they take your shoelaces and belt, so your trousers can end up at half mast. Thus displaying your underpants to all and sundry on the high street on a stuarday morning, is a way of communicating that you are well 'ard, innit. Even if you are engaged in helping your mum carry the shopping at the time.

So there you have it.

On a happy note, I was once walking behind some youths sporting this look, and one of their trousers fell down entirely. HAHAHAHAHAHA

I've been thinking about this some more AnyFucker and I think MillyR sums up where I stand on it when she says "I don't believe that what a woman wears increases their likelihood of being a victim of sexually assault. But what you wear can increase your likelihood of being propositioned by men, and at 15 you might not be very skilled at dealing with that."

Just thinking about my experiences as a teenager and my feminist views on a woman's right to wear what she wants and for it not to be perceived as an excuse for rapists etc. I think it's one thing to say that women are never responsible for rape/sexual assault/attacks on them and that the idea of "slutty" clothing being a cause or an invitation to rape is a complete red herring. I think it's another thing to say that wearing short skirts/tight tops/skimpy play suits/whatever is likely to elicit unwanted attention from men.

I know from my own experience that when I wear heels (hardly ever these days) and a tight dress I get a lot of unwanted attention from men. Whether that's wolf whistles, or comments or whatever. Most days I wear jeans and flat shoes and no one looks twice at me. It's not right that men feel they have the right to shout out or whistle at a woman in the street but I'm old enough to know that's the response I'm likely to get and to know whether I can handle it or not. I worry that my DD (when she's old enough) won't know how to handle it. I guess she'll learn how I did, through experience.

I suppose what I'm saying is that it's ok as a feminist and as a mum to worry about the unwanted male attention that your DD will get in skimpy clothes and whether she'll be able to cope with it. And that worrying about that and talking to her about handling unwanted comments/reactions etc is not the same as joining the people who say that women who wear "slutty" clothes can expect to be raped.

Sorry, long winded and rambling. Just trying to sort out the two separate issues in my head.

On a more Style and Beauty note, I reckon you should look at getting a strapless bra for your DD too. And dungarees

AF - well it looks you are facing a right old conflict and also facing that moment when your child takes the first steps to independent adulthood.

You might want to look into this thread later on and the BBC Radio 4 Moral Maze programme tonight on the moral conflict between Slut Walk (women can wear what they like) and sexualisation of children (but children need to be protected from wearing what some retailers sell).

If its any help, I dont think you need to worry about it to much. Teenage lads will look anyway and whatvershe wears. Its what they do.

I have two DSs and yes I have been thinking a lot about what to tell them about respecting women as per the question you and Speedy asked. Sure, I see teenage girls wearing the kind of thing that your DD is wearing and think to myself what the heck are my boys suposed to do? Single sex boarding school between age 12 and 18 worked for me. We actually were not allowed to talk to girls until 16. Not really practical in the modern age though.

In reality, even teenage lads can restrain themselves perfectly well. They just need to know that just because a girl wears a short skirt (or even less) does not mean you have a right to lay a hand on her or anything else unless she says she is OK with that. Even then, you damn well make sure you stop the moment she says she doesnt want you touching her either or even shows any signs of unhappiness or discomfort.

Now if I could just get my DS1 to restrain himself from talking about Jack Wills, Abercrobie & Fitch and Superdry apparel I could rest a bit easier and stop fidgeting with my wallet.

He is only 11 so I have all this to look forward to.

I agree with BB that most young men are perfectly well able to behave well, as are most adult men. And of course that most of them do.

TBH the unwanted attention that I have had in my life has been 80% of the time from men who were much older. The boys my age never gave me much trouble. I guess there is a reasonably sized pool of men who are creepy and predatory and like to pick on young girls purely because they know that they are inexperienced with attention and won't know how to react. A young girl looking embarrassed, or giving a polite smile, or looking confused, or upset, is far far more fun than an experienced adult women looking them in the eye and making a devastating comment about them. Or worse, telling the bar staff, bouncers or police. Not the the last one happens often enough, sadly.

I agree Sardine that back in my day the unwanted attention came from older blokes, not boys my own age. I suspect that's changed a bit though. There was that survey recently about sexual violence and harassment in schools and I can't remember the stats but the number of girls who had experienced unwanted touching or groping was scarily high :(

This is a really interesting thread.

It's made me really want a teenage daughter (or a younger sister would do) - your DDs all sound like such lovely interesting people.

I definitely agree about the difference between victim-blaming (rapists don't care very much about low-cut tops) and attracting unwanted attention. If you are 15 but look and dress like you are older then older guys might quite reasonably chat you up. They're not even necessarily doing anything wrong, but you might find it uncomfortable and not know what to say.

perhaps try buying clothes that suit her figure without her looking 'booby' I've got a mental image of a dolly parton type figure I might be wrong.

as wierd as it sounds V necks can be quite good,

I am baulking at buying strapless ones though

she is only 15 !

most girls have straplees bras by like 12 I had one at 11, I hate the fact the make your shape look a bit odd. (not much support) ultimo can be good.

thought you may face the 'I'm not buying what my mum likes' dilemma

thanks for further posts, everyone and welcome input from the fraternity

I have managed, with your help, to separate the 2 issues now. Was struggling a bit last night, but my head was in bits after a row with dd that went totally in the wrong direction with the message I was trying to impart to her being woolier than a sheeps arse. Much clearer now.

As I said, the crux of my discomfort is how she would deal with the attention she will inevitably attract. She is very polite and I have often observed her as being too polite and inhiibted when faced with a difficult situation

eg. when she was at work, an older bloke asked to buy her a drink and asked her for a kiss and was generally letchy, said he didn't believe she was 15

her response was to give the polite smile, nervous giggles, lack of bold eye contact and generally observe the social mores (even though he wasn't) and not effectively remove herself from the situation. She ended up telling her 6ft tall, burly, 19 yo male friend/colleague who had a word (and didn't tell DH and me until it was all dealt with, even though we were in the same building)

I guess that is ok, the times when she would be actually on her own are very few and far between....but what if he followed her afterwards and tried to corner her (not necessarily to physically attack her, but to exert more verbal sexual pressure/have a laugh at her expense, just because he can...) ?

I just don't know what she would do. Be polite, I expect, and freeze. We know this happens to the best of us, because on a previous thread discussing sexual predation this was a common theme, that women are often not able to break the social "taboo" of screaming/telling someone to fuck right off/running away.

Am rambling again. I think it is about older men. The power they know they have to wield over young girls not confident enough to look them right in the eye, tell them exactly what they are and call them on it

I can do it now, but I couldn't when I was 15, 18, 20, even 25.

I also think part of this is down to the context. I would not be concerned with my 15 year old niece dressing like this in the small town she lives in, because it is completely normal for most women and teenage girls to dress like that on a Friday/Saturday night. When I go out there with my SIL or other family members, I would dress like that because it is just the local culture. Because the local men and women are used to women dressing like that and don't make odd assumptions as that is how their mothers/sisters/daughters/girlfriends dress.

If my niece went on a night out into her local university city, she would dress differently, because there is a different unspoken dress code there, and she would be treated differently if she was not more covered up. So I think it is about dressing appropriately for the place and context. It is more difficult for women because there is a much wider range of styles of women's clothing than there are for men.

If you have big boobs and show them off you will notice that a lot of men spend their time talking to your tits. Some men find it almost impossible to look women in the eye...and having a large cleavage on display really throws them.

Yes, she will need to elarn to say "get stuffed" to blokes, and it is hard, a lot of girls can't do it. I had to take up karate to get the body confidence I now have.

I am also intrigued as to why young women want to walk around with their tits and their arse hanging out...what does it achieve?

haughtychuckle she is not like Dolly Parton

a healthy young girl, looking older than her years, with relatively big boobs and curves

more like a Kelly Brook-type, I guess

and no, she would not consider changing her style of dress on my request, I would have to ban said items

then she would acquiesce as she knows I always follow through, but it would create much bad feeling

and stopping her from dressing like her friends do is not a battle I wish to win with an outright ban

toughie, eh ?

miggs...could you ask my dd that question please ?

I certainly don't understand it either

although I guess a certain shape of tits and arse is difficult to actually hide unless you wear a Burkha

jeans and a t-shirt will fail to hide a Kelly Brooke figure

even dungarees would fail !

have you seen the recent New look advert ?

AnyFucker, try Bravissimo for strappy tops with integral bra for larger bust sizes. They do work but don't look any much different from a conventional camisole or vest.

I think it is difficult to hide the fact that you have got large breasts. I feel aware of this myself because I had small breasts until the age of 25, and never had to consider what I was wearing over them. Then I had kids, breastfed, they went up 3 cup sizes and never went back down. I cannot disguise them. The main time random men feel compelled to comment on them is if I have to run anywhere, and what I am wearing then makes no difference.

I don't feel a need to keep them completely covered up and have no cleavage because they are part of me, and just because I have large breasts I don't think I should have to walk around covered up to the neck in loose clothes all the time. However, I am old, somewhat assertive and taller than most men.

I would have felt very differently about it if I had the same breasts at 15, because predatory people do see teenagers as not having a fixed identity, and consequently think they can be manipulated into being what the older person would like them to be. If AF's daughter looks like Kelly Brook then I think her best option is going to be working on her assertiveness and sense of self, so that people are forced to acknowledge her as a person and not just an ideal body type. Because whatever she wears, men are going to notice she's gorgeous.

Bravissimo vest tops ?

Could she afford those out of her minimum-wage waitress earnings ?

you are very kind, milly, to carry on indulging my ramblings

They aren't cheap but not exorbitant-check out the website.

£32 for a vest top from a fuddy-duddy women's site ?

no, thanks

there is my answer

anyfucker have you heard of Slut Walk? I read it in Grazia today

look here

Might be an interesting place for you to look at with your DD, show her that hear her, sorry if that sounds patronising.

You can get OK bras for not much at some of the bigger size Supermarkets. Primrak do the hidden bra support thing in their vests, but I would still team that with a bra and I am a C cup.

Oh, and the handling of unwanted male attention- maybe just tell her to turn on her heel and walk away. For now that would be sufficient I think, no?