My teenage dd and the clothes she wants to wear...help me out please

[AnyFucker]

This is a kind of follow-up from the "what you wear might make men want to rape you" argument on another thread

Of course, I am a fully card-carrying member of "women should wear what they like and not have to suffer unwelcome attention" group

But here is my dilemma..

My dd is 15. She has big breasts for her frame. She likes to wear low cut, tight vest tops which I really have to bit my tongue about as her boobs are very much on display. She also wants to wear these tiny little strapless playsuit thingies that have to be worn without a bra. It looks like at any moment she is going to fall out of the one she insisted on buying (with her own, earned money from a PT job)

Do I pull my parental muscle and ban the wearing of such items bearing in mind she is living in my house, under my care. She is 15 and fairly streetwise but wouldn't cope with any serious sexual predation (of course). As part of her job, she was subjected to some unwelcome attention from an older bloke and she absolutely freaked out.

But still she wants to wear these clothes, and I know (as much as I rail against it, intellectually) that it isn't right.

I know this post is absolutely chockfull of hypocrisy and stupidity, btw, but am in a right old muddle.

What do I say to her, without

1. knocking her confidence

2. banning said clothes outright (we shouldn't have to do that, should we ? should we ???)

Am I taking the concept of wearing what you like and Fuck the Patriarchy too far and overthinking this ? Or by letting her wear relatively revealing clothes, am I failing in my duty as her mother ?

Now be aware these are perfectly ordinary clothes you can buy all over the high street, that thousands of other teenagers are wearing too. That is why she wants them, of course. Nothing she wears is at all overtly sexy, it's just how it looks to me, IYSWIM. I see my DH wincing sometimes too, and he is very feminist-minded. I guess he is mindreading others

Help me sort this out please. < sob >

yes, gak, I have read about Slut Walk on here and in the general news and blog sites

haven't discussed it with dd though, will have a think, thanks

yes, walking away

wouldn't like to teach her some verbal comebacks in case it escalates a situation, or she trips over her words

to get away from it is the best plan, I think

the spidey sense

thanks for bumping, ES

I had the Kelly Brooke figure when I was fifteen, although I was too shy and insecure to be considered pretty (another way of saying I wasn't pretty!). I also looked older than my age, even though I was totally naive and unassuming. Caused much ing. But when we were that age, breasts were still a joke - the Benny Hill approach was the abiding theme, and you hardly ever saw a glimpse of cleavage in public.

I spent years shrouded in baggy t-shirts and boxy jackets, and actually making myself look fatter than I was, in order to try and hide the boobage and, I suppose, avoid the comments.

My DD is now 13 and not at all endowed, although I suppose she may well take after me. I'd hate to think of her hiding her shape, but I'd baulk, as you are, at strapless tops worn without a bra, for the same reasons you do.

I have vowed to always have her fitted for a bra at John Lewis (she'll die of shame but I've started the ball rolling and had it done once already), which hopefully will help her see how much more flattering it is to wear one, before you even start to think about the implications of going without.

Sometimes I think creepy blokes must think they've got it made - the fashions in our day were much more modest, although I suppose it's all relative; no doubt Victorian ladies suffered their share of creeps even laced up to the eyeballs.

< Forgets point of post but sends support (arf) to AF >

thanks, WWWY

damn those creepy men

AF: I really do think that teaching your DD some devastating put-downs and the message that it's all right to fight might be useful. OK that's a bit glib, but teaching her that it's not compulsory to placate and be polite to someone who is making her feel uncomfortable, that it's atually perfectly reasonable, if she has tried to end a conversation nicely and walk away but been unable to, to say 'Look, fuck off or else' and if that doesn't work, to scream, throw a punch or at least chuck a drink over the predator... well that's a really good lesson, a really good thing to internalise: that if someone's upsetting you then he is already in the wrong, and if he won't fuck off with a polite telling, it's fine to get ruder.

I remember a couple of years ago when dd was 10, I was walking with her through a high street in the summer early evening. Some blokes were congregated outside a pub door and started being lairy, were saying look at the tits on that etc. DD was nonplussed and said 'why are they saying that to you mummy?' Just kept my head down, grabbed her hand and scuttled by.

She still remembers that, she said something about it not long ago.

Wish now I had had the guts to say something in order that she remembered me sticking up for myself, mind you I would not have wanted to run that risk.

I am a very forthright person, certainly not shy and retiring, but still feel very intimidate by being heckled in the street, and I am a confident 30 something woman. 15 year olds in the main feel a lot worse, and you are right who said it, it is older predatory males who are the worst at preying on teens.

yes, I would like her to be ruder (undoing years of bringing up a polite, well-mannered child < gah >)

sgb, as someone who was a blusher and tongue-tied as a teenager, I don't think it is always useful to try and teach a young person to "take on" older people

I know she holds her own with her own age group

but a 40yo lech ?

she is more likely to trip over her "clever comeback", forget the "script" in her mortification and generally make herself feel worse by trying to be clever and not managing it in the heat of the moment

I also think pouring a drink over someone is very inflammatory

yes, it sounds great, but can't imagine it working with my shy and polite 15yo

Two things that come to my mind are self defence classes, where you learn to trust your instints and remove yourself first. And secondly learning how to dress for her body shape. As a big booby girl it is tough but treat it the same as having a big bum or stupidly long legs, could be the personal shopper experence or even just the Internet.

Yes, you are very confused OP . But you know, in your heart of hearts, that you need to help your DD protect herself from unwelcome male attention. You have no power to change men (and be under no illusion - no-one ever will ) but you can enable your daughter to protect herself by dressing in a manner that does not excite male attention unduly nor signal that she is sexually available.

self defence classes sound good (have done them myself,years ago) but from the viewpoint of recognising potentially-dangerous situations, not solely from how to effectively knee a bloke in the bollocks

Definitely self-defense is baout awareness of situations and becoming more "streetwise", I think SGB already mentioned the 'not just how to kick him in the cock' :)

Not trying to cause an argument but its not just male attention that is the issue, Alot of girls who dress provocatively can be targeted by jealous girls which in many ways can be worse turn into full on bullying and maybe have to move school.

this happened to someone close to me thats quite in my for front whilst I'm reading this, girls can be very 'Ooh that girl' at that age its very nasty

Bit late coming to this thread and I think it's pretty much all been said.

I agree that there's a difference between one woman telling another what to wear and a mother informing her 15-year-old child about the wider implications of what she's wearing.

I think a talk about how her clothing choices could be seen as presenting herself as someone who wants to be judged by appearance not personality may help, as would talking to her about how to handle a situation where she feels uncomfortable.

Beyond that, no useful advice I'm afraid, but best of luck AF.

thanks for new messages x

AF. I haven't read the thread yet, wanted you to know that I'm setting aside a half hour to do so and will come back.

ooo ta, shirl

sorry my thread will be stealing your precious time

OK, read thread (skimmed a bit)

Shit. I don't think I can say anything intelligent at all!

I have 2 boys (one of 14) and the only comparison I can make (in any sort of context) is my son's absolute refusal to cut his hair...er, no, that's not really a comparison because he is actively rebelling against the MAN HAS SHORT HAIR bollocks that he gets at school so..

right.

When I was a teenager, it was fashionable in my head to wear cords and boy's jackets and jazz shoes. Things have moved on to a point at which it seems impossible to imagine a teenager looking remotely unisex, which is awful.

I guess that in your shoes, I would just and and do a drip feed. I drip feed the boys quite a lot (obviously from a view completely different to yours) I initiate chats about adverts, things like "Do you think that's fair that men are shown to be totally useless? Is it fair that the women are having to carry on even though they're poorly?" etc. As to the clothes she wants to buy and wear...it's the eternal generational fight I think - Mum used to moan at me for wanting a boy's coat, and wearing too much lipstick

TOTALLY UNHELPFUL. Sorry chicken, I am RUBBISH.

no, you ain't rubbish, shirl

you are bamboozled just like wot I am

Lord.

There's something I want to say about our (parental) love being an armour. You know? something about their clothing being what it is vs the armour of their own self respect and their understanding that their clothes are just "fashion" but that their knowledge and self esteem can be their Armour. DYKWIM?

Ugh

don't bamboozle me any further, fgs

I think I'm saying that you, as an individual, cannot fight it in a realistic way - and so you have to ensure that she understands that her external clothes are sat over her own armour of self esteem and understanding;

Nope, still talking shit.

true, very true