transexualism

[intransition]

OK I am quite prepared to be shot down in flames but would prefer some reasoned debate

I am transgender ie a genetic male who has always felt more comfortable in a female role. I have always dressed as such whenever possible and when presenting as such felt completely comfortable. i have been almost asexual for most of my life but as a female enjoy the attentions of men and their response to me

I live and work as female and am accepted as such - i know all about the law regarding discrimination etc

However some of the strongest criticism has been from women who regard themselves as feminists. It has to be added that I have had enormous support from other girls also and some tremendous and enduring friendships

I am aware of the concepts of gender as a social construct i.e i wasnt socialised as a female and didnt have those experiences as a litlle girl , teenager etc
biologically i dont have a menstrual cycle , cant concieve or give birth etc etc etc but I can function in society in my role . Am I a sister ? an abhorrence? deluded? Do i deserve support or derision?

What struck me from reading the OP is that you feel completely comfortable when dressed as a female (I am assuming this means in make up etc/ stereotypical female clothes/) & that you enjoy the attentions of men & their response to you.

As a woman I can honestly say I spend a lot of time (not as much now as in my teens & twenties) feeling uncomfortable around men, often feeling that they enjoy looking at me in a way that makes me feel uncomfortable & being pissed off with the ways they respond or approach me.

Perhaps the women who also like feeling & therefore responding the way you do around certain men are most likely to relate to you.

Whereas the women who get annoyed with men who are constantly seeing us as sexual prey or underlings just genuinely cant relate to the way male attention makes you feel & act?

Hope that comes accross in the right way.

Thornykate I think this is quite true. I admit that I was being mildly provocative in posting in a feminist forum and curious as to the response.

I do feel comfortable around men in the sense that I would have thought whatever your sexual orientation it is pleasant to be thought attractive by your ' target audience' Having said that I am still of the opinion the majority of the 'male' population are underdeveloped emotionally and predatory sexually and I am very wary ,try being a trans woman when things become more intimate !

I dont ask for pity but sexually it is very frustrating just another point to throw into the mix

I agree with Thorny Kate. I cannot imagine what it feels like to be 'completely comfortable' within the female gender role, and that makes it hard for me to imagine what your situation is like and to empathise with you.

As a consequence of that, my attempts to avoid discrimination are going to be based on attempts to be civil and tolerant. I think that is superficial and doesn't lead to really overcoming prejudice and valuing transgender people because it isn't based on any real understanding, admiration or empathy.

I have only known one transgender person (in the strictest sense of the word) in real life (MTF) and their decision to change gender was really personal to them and how they felt about themselves as an individual, and about their attitude to themselves. It wasn't about a desire to be treated as a woman by men, or to have something in common with women. I can value it as an expression of someone's internal world. As Sakura mentioned, a lot of us could be said to have GID as feminists. I take that very seriously, and find it increasinly unsettling. But I don't see becoming men as a solution to that.

Inansision-
i was debating whether to pm you or not-i decided against it.so........
ok-i dont in anyway want to offend you and i hope you arent.
walk away from the trans trap-its fools gold!
trans is a bad word[i feel]it keeps you forever in a transworld.
you are not trans-this is a word made up by the partriacy-a hate word.
orrigannly you might think"yippee-ive found what i am"and then you run into this lie!
you start off believing this dream-its the answer to youre prayers-you can finnally be who you feel you are-but its a impossible dream.
you can never be a woman because you was never a woman-the same way that i can never be a man.
when we call ourselves trans-every fucker has got a hold over us!
trans dont make you free!
we start off unfree and then get even more unfreeer trying to be ourselves.
if we dont comform tottally-we are basiccally in shit-if we tottally conform
we can get a grc-[by running to the gic]-we can hide our shame forever and look over our shoulder the rest of our lives.
and we are saying thankyou to the partriachy for this-we blind.
dont do it-fight back.
you are a beuitiful effeminate male-very precious in youre own right.
it dont matter how you feel or how you dress or what name you call youreself -this is ok-its ok to be you!
im reasonable handsome and butch and im a woman-this is the first time in my life that im proud to call myself a woman-this is real freedom-
got a random idea-lets stand up forseves and stop everyone poision us!
another random thought-the quacks have thought of another way to excuse theyre eradication of us-tell the world i have a male brainand you a female brain-yep-we can now allowed to be poisioned/cut up/and fucked up/
but wait-hang on-if i have a female body and a male brain-and you have a fem brain and a male body-MAYBE THIS IS THE WAY WE WAS MEANT TO BE!
i now feel that im a extreem female-this is ok-and as ive said-ive found peace in this.
trans is just eradication and no one can see it!
youre welcome to pm me-its hard to walk away from the trans dream and its scary-and i cried buckets-i was suicidal-
but the greatest freedom has been finnally accepting that im a butch woman
and wont accept anyone elses shit for this ever again.
im finnally proud of myself-and strong-no one will ever make me feel substanded ever again.
be proud of youreself darling-dont give in to this shit-truly be youreself-
this post is very long-so ill shut up now-but i can eradicate on what ive said

stay precious-youre place is not in feminism[im not being unkind]
stand by the side]and stand up to the paitrachy-but from a diffrent place!
when we can do this-then we can finnally come together.

sparky xxxxxx

I heart sparky.

Another moving post from Sparky. YOu don't post very often sparky (not as often as you should) but when you do it always hits the nail on the head. I'll never forget your post with the words
"Don't justify yourself to anyone; don't let the fuckers get you down"

What gets me in all this debate is that for a transgendered person, they just have to 'feel' female (whatever that means) and 'dress' female etc and be accepted as female. Yet for an 18 year old South African girl who was good at athletics and with a 'manly' figure, and her gender identity got questioned in the global media! She was subjected to all kinds of tests to determine her gender. A person who was BORN with female genitalia. It was unspeakably cruel and demeaning. And shows society's views of women who don't conform to the expectation of what a woman should look like.

oh and what a fabulous post from sparky!

psychoveggie* I'm not sure I agree with that. For example someone with androgen insensitivity may be chromosomally male but outwardly physically (and culturally conditioned) female. Pretty harsh to deny them their right to call themselves female? "

Not harsh at all. They're NOT female. They've had FEMININITY (a social construct) imposed upon them by a misogynistic medical establishment that believes Woman= Person without a Penis

When in fact they're MALE. And this is no comment on intersex people AT ALL. It's a comment on the patriarchal medical establishment that will not leave them alone

I've got no problem with intesex people identifying as either male or female but whichever route they choose, it doesn't make them women. Women are always fully XX and wanting the science to be different doesn't make it so.

thankyou.
*waves"at Sakura-i would post more but i am very busy these days banging my head on the floor!
Intransision-ive just realised that ive misspelt youre posting name-i do appologise-this wasnt intential.

yep Queen-society doesnt like a woman that cant/wont conform.
i see it all the time-
for a start i know i have the "uuuuggghhh"/omfg/wtf is" that" factor-i see it in peoples eyes.!
if a man bumps into me in the shop-he will often say"sorry mate"-then do a double take and say"sorry i mean errr err err!!they CANNOTrefer to me as a woman-and they are very uncomfatable.
other men view me with great suspicion-and look awkward and uncomfatable
and sometimes look angry.
i think my strongness and the fact that they cant sexualise me scares them.
i sometimes fear getting raped to "teach me a lesson"!

Sakura

So identifying as female and being a woman are two different things? And in order to be a woman you need XX? Just for clarification.

I personally think that your definition of female is ridiculously narrow and separatist. If someone has been brought up as female, is outwardly female, but due to androgen insensitivity (most pertinent example and not that uncommon) is genetically male they should be considered male and (back to your prison example) be treated as such by the medical and legal establishment? And also for the record AI does not mean a man without a penis, it means a person who has physically developed in a very similar way to a "normal" XX female.

Like it or not chromosomal abnormalities are actually not that abnormal and limiting being female to XX (by the way some women are XXX) is a bit short sighted IMHO.

I'm not railing against you so much Sakura (although I know it sounds that way because you happen to be the person I replied to). It's more a general trend I have perceived since becoming interested in feminism and feminist literature which is to separate and create distance between females and the rest of society. I've also sensed a discomfort and lack of sympathy with MTF transgender people. I guess I believe it is better to challenge the structures around us from within, not by separatism. Personally (and I'm 100% sure many feel the same) the kind of reaction to patriarchy suggested by radical feminism is not open to me because whilst being a feminist I also want to remain in my family unit with 2 males. I challenge inequality when I see it, and I would like to see big changes to our society, but I feel that a lot of the current thinking involves moving away (literally) from the society in which we find ourselves.

I know I'm rambling, will admit to a few glasses of wine this evening but I don't feel I fit in anywhere. I feel deeply uncomfortable with the traditional female role that many in my extended family see as correct but equally I don't fit in with what I have read of the other side of the coin. Surely as feminists the most powerful thing we can do is influence our nearest and dearest, those who love and trust us most. I'd love to think that my DS will grow up with an attitude towards women (and men) that I can be proud of.

I know some see humanism as a cop-out that is male-centric but do we not need to reclaim it? Create a better humanism which is really about equality and balance and fairness.

Gah, sorry, extreme ramble. Must go to bed...

"If someone has been brought up as female, is outwardly female, but due to androgen insensitivity (most pertinent example and not that uncommon) is genetically male..." I would have no problem recongising someone as socially female, who has been brough up as female and at no time in their life has benefited from male privilege which has therefore given them a sense of entitlement. They're still genetically male though, so i have no idea why they would insist on being called female. It's all a bit angels on pins this. As long as they are female to all intents and purposes, I wouldn't rush to the barricades if they wanted to use the female loos. However, we are not in the main talking about that are we: we are talknig about males who have been socialised as males and therefore have the entitled psychology of males and who therefore are males, however many hormones they take - that's where the discomfort and lack of sympathy comes from IMO.

I simply don't undertsand your assertion that feminists want to separate and create distance between females and "the rest of society." We want to change society so that females can function as full human beings in it, something they have never been allowed to do under patriarchy. Leaving aside the fact that you define "the rest of society" as the non-female side of it, IE males and transexuals (interesting that you put them on the same "side"), why on earth would we want to separate ourselves off from the other half of humanity? they are our fathers, our brothers, our sons, our friends. I think you are seeing things that aren't there.

You may be right HerBeX, I know I am overgeneralising. I do stand by there being a definite element of that within (radical) feminism.

They're still genetically male though, so i have no idea why they would insist on being called female.

Because they look female, they've been treated as female and have grown up as female. Really not rocket science.

we are talknig about males who have been socialised as males and therefore have the entitled psychology of males and who therefore are males, however many hormones they take - that's where the discomfort and lack of sympathy comes from IMO

• Here is my problem. Males are males because they are not XX. Ok. (Leaving aside the contradiction that on the one hand distrust in the patriarchal medical/scientific world is encouraged and on the other hand is utterly slave to what they've said makes someone a woman).

Then, males are males because they have the entitled sense of psychology of males. I'm not sure how far you can go with that one. To what does he feel entitled and how can we put all males in this category? If the MTF transexual had been beaten and cowed all his life by those around him (therefore hopefully having his sense of entitlement knocked out of him) could he then be female? I know it's a ridiculous example but no more ridiculous than the frankly offensive attitude that women are a club of members who have mutual understanding and experience of their environment and that anyone outside of their definition cannot possibly understand and be part of it.

For one thing it falls into the trap of so many gender studies that find "differences" between the sexes and fail to note that individual differences within the gender are much greater. Does it mean that women who have been more oppressed as a result of their sex are more female and that we cannot and should not show solidarity or claim to be affiliated with them?

I'd say the difference between my sense of entitlement and a woman growing up in poverty in rural Africa is far more than the difference between myself and a male growing up in similar circumstances to me. Are we not being patronising (and I use the word advisedly) by offering our feminist solidarity to these women? Or perhaps we should only be feminist within our class.

sparky...where the hell have you been ?

Hey Anyfucker-how are you?
oh ive been busy running around trying to fight the patriarchy!
the bastards!
im hoping to get more involved with feminism now-ive just joined a couple of places and im hoping to be out on the streets shouting aswell soon.

psychoveggie - he is entitled to have himself considered a full human being and be listened to. And impose his views on lesser humans than him.

As for your last paragraph, I don't really understand it tbh. You're doing that thing of "what about the other groups" - that's a different discussion. Also being feminist only within your own class - not really sure what you mean by that.

I am well, sparky, and better for "seeing" you

PH, thanks

im glad you are well Anyfucker-yep im pleased to "see"you aswell

ive seen "mtf"work in male enviorments then transision then say that they are the only women that have got that far in theyre company!
rubbish-they still have theyre male privaledge!
ive also seen fights where "mtf"basiccally say "my "vagina"is better than youres because my surgeon is better"[a bit like my penis is bigger than youres]-male privaledge again!

psychoveggie:
"So identifying as female and being a woman are two different things? And in order to be a woman you need XX? Just for clarification."

Yup. being female and thinking you're female or identifying as female are entirely different things.

This is an important fact to get your head around if you want to be a feminist.

Feminism is about eliminating sex based oppression, which the oppression of females i.e women, who were born with the XX chromozomal make-up.

We are concerned about people who are female, not those people (i.e males) who want to be, or were put in the "woman" box by a misogynistic medical establishment.

If you want to worry about other groups of people, fine do so. Be a humanist, be an equalist ( a MRA word if ever I heard one) be a human rightist... but if you want to be a feminist, you are going to have to understand that defending women, all women, against the patriarchy is the priority,.

Women have spent enough goddam time and energy looking after everyone else. If we want this revolution to move forward we are going to have to put ourselves first. for the first time in history.

Intersex are welcome in female spaces as far as I'm concerned because if they were put in the "female" box at birth (even though they're not female) then they wouldn't have been socialized to have a male sense of entitlement.
Trans? They're MEN who think they're WOMEN. And they are entitled to think/act/dress whatever they like. They are NOT entitled to push their way into the women's movement, though, or into female spaces either such as prisons. That male-like domineering behaviour turns my stomach. I'm a feminist so I can get away from male privilege, not have it foisted on me.

sakura-i think i love you!

right back at YA sparky