Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

Astronaut I think what you describe, and what the Guardian article describes is very true.
Women take on the lion's share of childcare, and the reasons for this are complex and varied. But bottom line, its women doing the 'triple shift' of paid work, house work and childcare. This has been discussed by feminists and sociologists since the 1980's (Ann Oakley). Sociologically its to do with gender roles, primary and secondary socialisation etc.
There may be a psychological reason too- not sure if we like this but- rarely in the mammal world is it the case that males do not know when females are ovulating (Some monkey's communicate fertility with red bottoms, dogs can tell through smell). So human males do not know with 100% certainty that their child is their child (unless they imprison their wives for months on end- think Taliban ruled Afghanistan). Research suggests that up to 10% of children are cukolded (raised by a man who thinks its theirs but its not). This could be a biological/ evolutionary reason for the difference in the gender roles. Not sure how significant it is compared to all social effects/TV/Magazines etc.
But still think Guardian journalist is right, and that feminism has allowed women to have it all, but men have not had to change.

I really don't get why this article has caused such ire on the other thread - she's absolutely right that the balance gets tipped very heavily in the father's favour once a couple have children.

I see it with all my friends in relationships, regardless of what the relationship was like before. Especially in the first year.

I suppose it is different now (since 2001) if you are at the lower end of the scale as you get your childcare paid for so if a woman wants to work they can and keep their skills up for when they are older. (thats what I am hoping to do!)

I think it must be hard if a man has to go away all the time and I dont think I would be able to handle that situation personally.

I agree dittany. Men have lots of responsibility here.
Swallowedafly I see your logic- but do you see mine that biological differences still have an impact on this debate- they cannot be ignored and certainly do not excuse/ justify bad behaviour from Men.

And dittany, I really struggle to get dh help, and so do so many of my friends. If women stopped shopping, cooking, cleaning, organising kids, washing etc then men do not step in do they- they just live in a pigsty, leave dc homework undone, send dc out in dirty clothes, eat takeaways and sandwiches etc etc. I know many men not like this, but a hell of a lot are.

After 18 years of marriage nearly, my dh does do quite a lot, but it has taken some effort. This is why we almost discount men in the discussion- because they often have different standards.

Kangers...pulling the 'triple shift' is not feminism allowing 'women to have it all'.....it is a con ...pretending feminism had achieved its aims, making women wanting further change appear unreasonable. Don't believe the hype.

Also..speaking as a domestic slattern...when a man realised you a genuinely not going to clean up after them..they get tend to get very distressed about it.

agree dittany, and thought that's what I said snowmama- clearly if women doing triple shift then not got it all- just got a lot more shit- and men still have power in our patriarchal society.

Guardian article did not suggest how to resolve the issue (guess we're expected to buy the book). I would suggest do as my niece says- and not have kids. But that's easy for me to say with 3 dc.

Snowmama- that's the bit I really struggle with. Judge myself and others very harshly if live in a mess. And that's not very helpful and contributes to my own triple shift.
wish I could be like you , you domestic slattern!

I still stand by if you started off not doing anything then they wont make you do it. I didnt cook my husband a meal ever not even once until I had a child. I do it sometimes now but only mainly to feed my daughter.

He used to pick up all my clothes and iron them and drop them back off to me when I met even within a few weeks of meeting. He also used to shine my shoes for me so I could come out.

That is just how I am as I was what you might call domestically challenged when we met! I told him he would never make a housewife out of me and he said he didnt care. Its never been a problem as I was honest from the outset. A man will still marry you if he wants you enough.

Kangers....you probably wouldn't wish it if you saw my house right now ;-)

sound idyllic noodle69

I was on daily inspections on the military cause I couldnt iron the shirts. They are extremely difficult they have loads of folds in the back! I used to get so wound up about it and then we met and he used to come round to my barrack block pick them up and take them to his and do them all and shine my shoes so I could come out so we could snog for hours or otherwise I wouldnt have been able to go out!

Your story should be part of all nursery education- we need to stop doing the triple shift stuff and then perhaps we may edge towards equality.
Lovely tale by the way- and even better if he still does this now- after first flush passed etc.

Why do women apologise for men then? Why do they treat men's domestic work as a favour? My mother will not let my father cook because he doesn't do it 'right' (her way) and he is then content to let her do it.

Today I am in control of the washing. I put things away in a haphazard fashion, DP cannot find clothes for the children thus cannot 'help'' he is angry and frustrated. I get the clothes out.

Because it reflects the gender roles we all anticipate and are socialised into- "women's work". Even to extent that blokes say they are 'babysitting' their own kids NormanTebbit. No idea why we all do it. I did a straw poll with an A level class and they all had a penny drop moment when I msaid- 'has your Dad ever said "I've done the washing up for you love" to your Mum'. they had not thought of it before, and I was a bit sad that there was little variation in this- as in very few families had 'symmetrical conjugal roles'.

but anyway, i'm glad it all worked out.

I dont iron even now thats a mans job He also has what I call an ironing fetish as he is addicted to ironing lol. He wasnt the best in the military either he got put back a few times when on training and had to redo a couple of weeks so we could be together.

He stayed back so he could propose to me, then he moved 400 miles away and gave up a posting right next to his house as he wanted to be with me. His Sgt said why would you swap when you could move and fuck loads of women and said there will be plenty of women at his new camp. He didnt listen and then he rang his mum and told him he had met the girl he wanted to marry. The rest is history. Not all men are nobheads

no.not all men are nobheads. dh does the ironing in this house as well. but i still acknowledge that i am in the minority of women in this regard.

we are arguing the same thing.

the beginning of this thread was very anti older mother and 'what did they expect' (not nec from you) and i'm just aghast at the lack of compassion.

i can understand giving people the advice to hand over the baby and leave the house. (i give out that advice on every 'my husband does nothing with the baby and he doesn't know how' thread - of which there are zillions.) but i can't understand the lack of compassion for a woman who is struggling against the tide of societal opinion and finding herself swept away. whether she is young, old, working class, middle class, or the queen of sheba.

lenin - i think that distance from extended family plays an important part - but you also get families who live next door to in-laws and find themselves in a war over parenting styles. it's powerlessness and the need for help, but the fear of being seen as a failure all over again. as a dil i can't measure up to my mil's standards/ i don't believe she is right/ i hate it when she does this with the baby. defensiveness manifesting as 'i'm the one that is right - i must be - i'm that creature';s mother and i'm suppoised to know everything. she's only the mil, he's only the father - i must remain in control at all costs.'

far better to hand over the baby to the mil and crash for a few hours. there's very little chance of her actually managing to break the baby completely.

but that's a whole different ball game - i won't leave the dc's with my mother unless my dad is there, for example...

but really - we haven't lived near either set of parents, and i've seen a lot of my peers struggling without support... support is essential wherever it comes from really. partner/ extended family/ friends... the lack of support is probably exacerbated by dinky's whose friends are all 'work' friends. hence the 'i need to find some mummies' and the trek to parent groups. take support from wherever you can get it.

I wasnt really arguing with you madwoman. I did take a bit of offence to 'not so idyllic now and anyway glad it worked out etc. I wasnt the one that said it was idyllic and it came across as a little bitchy but its ok.

I also said on many points one of the reasons it can be easier if you are young parent in certain areas is there isnt any pressure to be a perfect mum or earth mother. There is no pressure to do anything in my area if you give the kid an ocasional fruit shoot, ice cream or FF the world wont end and you wouldnt be seen as a failure etc. I have never even heard that these things would even be seen as a bad thing in the way it is written on MN? If you work and put your child in nursery that is accepted here to.

That is by far the case here and I do think that is media created in the magazines/media middle class mummies read. If you go out and leave your kids for a night with your parents/in laws its not looked down on and no one I have ever met is scared to do it etc. A lot of GPS here look after their kids up to 40 hours a week why the mums work as well. I believe it does mean there is less pressure overall.

I also think as Lenin said younger mums are often nearer their parents and they are youngerr so that can make it easier. There are other stressses on young parents as norman said sucha s lack of cash. I wasnt saying young parents never get stressed or are better parents.

I wasnt trying to insult anyone. I agree with Lenin of course support is great. My daughter started nursery at 4 months as well as having my parents, husband and all my friends on hand. It makes it a lot easier. Historically children werent brought up just by mum in isolation and thats why I didnt want to do it now.