Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

I have no problem if they change their behaviour. Its when the men treat like like that from the off even when dating and cohabiting no kids. Thats what I despair off and I have seen it happen unfortunately but they will change when they are a daddy and we can be a 'proper family'

Anyway got to go bed. Been emotional lol. I have offended people and they have offended me but along the way I think we want the same things from society. Still non the wiser of how to get there even after 15 pages and none the wiser on how to help women out there living with men doing this right now. Other than stand by them and wait for the world to change. Its a bit frustrating tbh.

Ponderings from last night. I thought it would be interesting to ask all of those in equal partnerships did you grow up in a family model where men did a lot in the home so always knew that you would go for someone the same?

I think because my dad was on his own with us kids a lot when my mum was working. He also did a lot round the house and my husband, and all my exs have been my dads exact carbon copy.

I think children growing up in those marrriages/families will take it as a given that they will be with someone equal when they grow up. I think that shows all families who have the equality now that it is worth it, even if they themselves never knew that and found it a struggle to change their thinkin, as their children wont have to fight for it from their men. It will just gravitate to them due to the men they choose from never knowing any different.

Also I am very similar parent to our daughter as my mum. My husband is very similar parent to our daughter as my dad was to me so I definitely think there is something in you repeating patterns. Luckily mine is a very good one to replicate. How do we break patterns that are that opposite way round?

Hi, noodle. Hell, no. My father thought it was quite a big deal if he did anything at all, like making my mother a cup of instant coffee, and he's just the same now. Even when she was dying of cancer she was still doing all the cooking and cleaning. She was the classic self-oppressed person Dittany is thinking of - thought he was wonderful because he'd occasionally wipe the dishes. I think the more important question is whether the HUSBAND/partner grew up in an egalitarian family. Mine did have a mother who worked full-time for most of his late childhood. He also had two sisters, and they made him toe the line.

Yes, excellent followup, SAF. Teach your children well... teach your daughters not to take any shit, but also your sons not to deal any out. If you teach your sons to cook and clean, and your daughters see them doing those things, that too will have an impact. My son does the weekly vacuuming, can cook, and can iron his own stuff.

Absolutely correct. My dad did sod all around the house until very late in life and my first marriage was to someone whose mum was most definitley not respected in the family. My dh on the other hand has a dad who was foced to retire early though ill health and who is generally a nice kind bloke who did many domestic tasks at home and who deeply respected and loved his own wife. Dh is a man who deep down in his soul does not subscribe to many gender sterotypes. He sometimes calls me on some of mine in fact.

I take great heart from the fact that we never have to explicitly explain to ds that men and women are equal and should share the household stuff. DS takes it as a given as he sees it practised daily.
He knows that either dh or I can take care of him can cook, clean etc. I feel that as a feminist, how we bring up our sons is the single biggest thing we can do to change things for the better for women. Unfortunately for some households this is a very very difficult thing to do if sons do not see equal partnerships in action.

Please note that I do not mean that SAHM cannot have an equal partnership with a man but I do believe that in the society we have, it is much more difficult to achieve a genuinly mutually respectful equal partnership if a woman is a SAHM. This may not be fair but it is nonetheless true

As well as the normal sacrifices having children brings (less time to ourselves etc), the society we live in demands quite a lot of additional economic sacrifices. For a relationship to be equal and mutually respectful, both partners haver to be willing and able to share these sacrifices. If a man can't or won't do that the relationship will be unequal, it is impossoble for it to be otherwise.

The problem with being a long term, SAHM as a woman is that you really do end up in the hands of a man and my view is that very few people (men or women) can be trusted with that sort of power over another person. Even basically nice people can end up reverting to some deeply held sterotypical views that destroy mutual respect in certain circumstances.

If we make sure our sons do not have those sterotypes in any form then it may be possible for future generations to negotiate clear gender divisions. with a mother staying home and it not resulting in the working partner taking the piss and in the mother losing out so much more than the father. At the moment that is often not possible and no woman should take it as given at all.

Once when have equality in what people have to give up in order to become parents, that we might be able to tacke the bigger environmental factors that cause us (men and women) to have to give up so much to have a child. This means rethinking completely the way a capitalist society works and the type of behaviour it rewards.

Im on my lunch brk and on a crap fone but yeah my husband came frm a family like mine.he grew up playing with a doll cald amy and has always been hands on with kids before our own.i go for men like that cause they remind me of my dad i supose. also been giving a lot of thought to the nursery nurse thing. it provoked quite a discussion at work. my manager works for 6.50 an hr and claims childcare.her financial contribution is low but she has a degree and is regularly at social services core group meetings.its bad how we are taken advantage of cause we care too much and are still viewed as a drain on resources.

and although you didn't answer my question earlier, i bet none of you are men.

I don't know, I don't think you are more likely to end up in a disrespectful relationship if you are a long term SAHM, not if the man you aer with respects and values childrearing as much as he should.

Research shows that WOHM's are still doing more household chores than their husbands, even where they work full time. In fact, I think there may be research out there - Sakura has referred to this in other threads - which show that men with WOHM wives, actually do less housework than men with SAHM wives.

How you treat your partner IMO, isn't a question of what lifestyle you choose, it's a question of how much you respect him or her.

I am more and more convinced that all - absolutely all of it - goes back to how much respect you have for women.

Men who are brought up in households where their mother did absolutely all the housework and waited on them hand and foot, still manage to learn to do their fair share if they are motivated to do so by a basic respect for their wives. I've known men who are in their seventies and eighties now, who did what they were brought up to think was "women's work" when they got home from the building site/ office because they loved and respected their wives and didn't want her too burdened.

It all comes down to respect.

I dunno; think there might be a tinge of social class difference/general norms differences. The most idle men I know and knew are either a. incredibly rich and expect their wives/partners to buy in help or b. long-term unemployed. It's the middle males that are apt to get it done. My own father was and is a nosegay of both vices, a short term working sheet metal blaster risen to top exec. Plenty of guts and grit, and no grace.

Yeah madwoman we have men working for us. Only a couple are man (1 permanent, 1 modern apprentice on £2.50 an hour ) but the team isnt big. They have it worse than us with people thinking they are paedos/dodgy etc. I think they have their own issues to.

Many men who care too much get exploited to my husband is doing youth work volunteering and wants it to lead to a full time role but the government are taking away funding with the big society.

Oh and for male nursery nurse issues go in the nurseries topic on male carers in nursery the sexism from women who you would think wouldnt do that kind of thing on that is terrible!

Agree with sieglinde certain groups are more sexist in what they expect women to do rich men where it is expected the wife will stay at home and the man goes away for business meetings and lunches but the woman is expected to just get on with it, military is very sexist if both arent serving. The wives job is just to look after the kids for months on end when often the men are on jollies and beer calls, and follow him around with no life of their own. Also yep doley types who wouldnt do a days graft either in or out of the home like my friends men!

Obviously not all men within those groups are sexist but I think as a whole they are more likely to be.

SAF, not so much prejudice as commenting that these issues are more difficult for some than for others. Some unemployed men/fathers are great. But there's often a gender norm in social classes that works against for instance the wives of very rich men....

No I am not saying that I am saying that some professions have a culture that promotes sexism. Military being the one I have seen first hand. It definitely is seen as the man will work, the woman stays at home often for months on end. It is very difficult for the woman to have her own life, to work, to do anything as she must follow her husband. In that situation it is obviously a lot harder to achieve equality due to the way the society is set up.

Also when it comes to offensive twaddle I have been called a in denial, low self esteem and confidence stepford wife. Who is lazy, feckless parent who cares more about getting leathered than looking after her kid, a liar. Out to claim benefits to support my lifestyle such as my rent (definitely dont do that). Also that I am taking more from society than I put in as I bothered to do a degree to better myself and help the vulnerable groups that I work with even though I am a low wage. That was all about me personally.

I never at any point said it was the solution! Why do you keep saying this? I said that I support money put in to supporting women to work if they want to in order to achieve a more equal society. It is only a short term thing for the early years and the money the higher earners pay in tax will cover it over a lifetime. Also the lower end if they stay in work then it can be of benefit to them. At no point did I say everyone had to work, I was against SAHMS etc. I just said motherhood can be hard not everyone can do it full time. Luckily the lower classes can now due to TCS would be good if this could be expanded. Even not paying the whole lot in some way subsidised like other countries.

I also never said there is anything wrong with older mothers. My mother is an older mother herself. I was saying it can be more difficult if they themselves have ageing parents or have moved away with their jobs. I thought that made things harder and I supported Surestart for all classes/incomes. I also think the stigma that means PILS, grandparents and outside help isnt a good thing and the role should be just the mother doing everything is damaging to women. Whether family, community or government support women should not be doing it all on their own.

I have said numerous times I do not live in a utopia. I have also lived in lots of other areas and been in the military. I said not all people are the same but some working/class cultures foster men doing less than others.

I am also not sure why I am explaining this to you again as I dont know what your problem is with me. I have said this about a million times and you choose to ignore me and say offensive things about me personally. I dont think anything offensive of you and you started saying I was lazy and only cared about getting leathered. Its water under the bridge now and can we lay this having a go thing a rest?