Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

No I wasnt saying that was why they put up with it. Whether they are SAHMS or WOH I dont want them to put up with it. I want the women to know they deserve better. I get frustrated as I said when I see it because I want women as a group to feel like they deserve more. Maybe that does tie in to society expecting certain things and women reading the messages. I dont know but I would like it to change.

It was a seperate issue I was talking about when I was talking about some women want to work but have to quit their jobs as they cant afford childcare. It is usually the woman that does this by default not the man. I think this should be subsidised so if women WANT to carry on working they can. I definitely dont think everyone should do the same. I definitely dont think women should work if they dont want to but there are many who are saying they struggle with full time motherhood so if they want to childcare help should be availble to them so they can work. Not everyone is suited to spending all their time with babies and if it helps the women then I think it is a good thing. Like what they do in Sweden as they heavily invest in childcare.

You have got me all wrong as if I am a horrible person when I have tried my best to word what I mean correctly. I am not like what you say I am or what dittany said I am either. I just want to change things and help people I know in these situations. Maybe this thread has helped me realise it is not that simple but I am a take action type of person and it just looks like an impossible task with no plan to change things.

I don't people think you are a horrible person. I feel without putting words in anyone mouth that people felt you have not reflected as much as you could on why things are the way they are.

Because you have been able to negotiate a good life for yourself, it appears that you feel everyone should do this without considering what may be preventing them from doing so

Think about some of the questions you have raised yourself.

1. Why do your friends stay in abusive relationships, is it because they are silly with poor negotiations or is it because they live in a society that repeatedly tells them they should be part of a couple /family unit.
2. Is childcare work badly paid because it is easy/unskilled (I dont think this btw) or because it is not valued as a skill in society
3. Are male caters treated with suspicion because they are probably 'dodge( it are they being disrespected for doing what is considered 'women's work( in society?

1. I dont know why my friends do it as if it was me I would rather be single but I suppose I am looking through it from never knowing men who do this so it seems weird and strange to me. It is so far from normal for me, I do struggle to get my head round it tbh.

I want to know how else we can make it happen? I dont see at the moment how we can as I have heard no suggestions except bringing up children to treat their partners equally and with respect. Which I think happens through role modelling but these families are teaching their kids right now this is normal, and I dont see any way of breaking the cycle at the moment.

2. I think that in my case childcare is low paid as fees dont pay enough for owners to make enough money which is fair enough. I dont mind low pay but I do mind attitudes which say I am putting less in to the pot financially than I take out when there is no other way of doing it. How else could you survive on the wage and provide top class provision? I have never cared about the low pay as it is a passion I do it for but I do care about bad attitudes towards childcarers. That comes from women I lot as well as I have been involved in quite a few heated debates on aibu about it in the past eg thick, wouldnt let their child do it, what you do if you can only only just eligible to do childcare or hairdressing etc

1. I think if you read the 'male carers in nursery' thread a lot of parents on there said they felt uncomfortable having men change girls nappies. Also one poster said that they not only felt uncomfortable by male child carers but by male teaching assistants in the classroom Seen that attitude in RL though because dads help and drop off here as soon as it is a 'random man' wants to look after the kids at nursery they have an ulterior motive.

-does everyone have the same family support as you?
-does everyone have access to the same benefits and therefore childcare as you?
-are men always like your partner is and if not in what ways different and how does that impact on women?
-do these specific conditions in your life mean it is easier for you than others to demand equality?
-do things that apply to you necessarily apply to others?

All these things apply to my friend except having the man being unhelpful and useless. She comes from a 'good' family, loads of support, same childcare options available, she has a job, she is a lot like me etc. I think that is what frustrates me tbh.

Also in relation to can everyone get childcare as me in general no they cant and thats what I have mentioned 4 or 5 times in this thread. I would want that to happen and is probably one of my most supported policies.

I would just like to say that I think noodle's net contribution shouldn't be considered in terms of her earnings, tax, tax credits etc as an individual.

I think society as a whole should be paying towards childcare, I don't think individual parents should have to shoulder this burden alone. Subsidising the education of child care workers, and then subsidising their own child care so that they can work, does not make them a drain on society any more than a non-earning SAHM is a drain on her family. The resources to pay for what our children need have to come from somewhere, and making it all down to individual families is part of the old-skool family system which allocates women and children to men to do as they like with. Childcare costs money (it will never be financially self supporting or profit making simply because children have no money and have to be looked after by people who are being supported by other adults somehow) - someone has to pay - I'd like the burden to come partly from society as a whole and in theory I respect the idea that those who do it should be as motivated and well educated as possible.

it would just be an extension of the education budget, tbh. starting earlier and on an optional basis (as in optional to access). just massively extended budget, which means higer taxation (always a vote winner).

it would create more legislative burden on nurseries though - and would not be possible without extending the certification process away from 'not very qualified's to diploma or degree. so increasing the uni population further.

it might be a very different group of people who would take the training and do the jobs though. and not sure how you would make it more man-friendly - what with primary school teaching being pretty much a female only domain.

madwomenintheattic I have a 2:1 BA (Hons) Childhood Studies to work in my nursery. Already many nursery workers have the same as me or the Early Years Practitioners Status which is a Postgraduate qualification. We still all work for the minimum wage or not much above, even as managers. The money does come from the government for doing the degree but we get no extra wages. Nursery workers do it because we want to help the children and provide the best provision.

We already work towards the Early Years FOundation Stage. We have to do planning, individual learning journeys for each child, preparing for the sessions. A lot similar to teachers but we are in the setting up to 10 hours a day with the children, we also dont get teachers holidays. I dont think a lot of people understand what nursery staff do nowadays.

I agree not as many men would take it but I do believe that comes down to attitudes. When I was at uni wwe had a couple of men on the course and they talked about the discrimination they faced, this opinion is reflected on the thread in the nurseries topic here. Also the modern apprectice we have that is male is planning to go and work with special needs children as for some reason it seems more accepted to have a few more men working with them. He says he thinks it is because often the children need lifting/and or restraining (older children that may weigh a lot more) and so it is an area of child care which seems to have more men in it. Dont know how true that is overall he is a young lad and that is what happens at the special setting he is in as a volunteer.

Also we are responsible for early intervention, referrals for special needs/speech therapy, we have to do meetings after work for free, loads of extra training eg letters and sounds, child protection, first aid etc. We liaise with social workers, speech therapists, support workers on an almost daily basis. We write reports and do observations for the NHS for refferrals for things like Autism. We also write reports for Social Services which are used in Core Group Meetings to decide what happens with a child.

slight digression - i'm not suggesting that people who work in nurseries need to be better qualified from the customers (ie my) pov, merely if the govt (and taxpayers) were to be persuaded to extend the education budget to pay the childcare workers better (ie value them more etc etc), there would need to be 'proof' of value for money. to be blunt (whatever your job entails in reality, noodle) childcare is viewed as something that anyone (as long as they have breasts) can do and requires no specialist training or knowledge. hence the minimum wage etc etc.

note - having used about 7 different nurseries in different parts of the uk, with three different children, one with a physical disability, i have been quite happy with the care provided. both from 1-1s and ordinary keyworkers, supervisors, and management. and i have a complete understanding of what the job entails. i think of the thirty or so childcare workers who have been in direct contact with any of my children, only one had a degree. your nursery is once again not an example of a general childcare setting if all of the staff have degrees, noodle. most nurseries can barely manage to get their staff through nvqs, and take them straight out of school because they are willing to work for next to nothing. just because they are cheap doesn't mean that they aren't brilliant childcarers, mind. it just means that their contribution isn't valued in monetary terms to society.

parents would not be able to cough up increased wages for childcare workers - it merely mean that more women had to stay at home and revert to the 1950s housewife role, it would have to be the govt. and i can't see that happening in the short term

Oh no not all the people at my nursery have degrees and I dont think you definitely need a degree. A lot have got degrees nowadays as the labour government said that every nursery needed a degree member of staff by 2015 and they were going to put wages up for these roles as it would be seen as a profession like what happened with teachers years ago.They then paid for 100s of nursery staff to do the degree and now they have said they arent going to do it anymore. I am a bit of a cynic but I believe they were going to do that all along because now they have lots of degree trained staff but still have no intention of uping the wages. The government were actually susidised wages for those who were training, and paid the setting to allow the people to train but now they are qualified they have taken it all away with this new government . So we were getting somewhere but now we arent.

I just think that a lot of people in childcare go above and beyond for their role whether that be gaining a degree, taking on extra courses, going to unpaid meetings, doing up the nursery, taking home planning etc. Many do all or some of those things even the young modern apprentices on £2.50 an hour.

I do think we should be more valued for the effort we put in and dont like the idea that we are a burden on society as we have to claim tax credits to pay for our childcare. When really we are still looking after our own children all through the day, and loads of other peoples at the same time. I think there are lots of misconceptions about nursery workers and that does come in to childcare being undervalued but my job is not always 'easy' like many people think it is.

[complete tangent]
SAF, I agree the education thing has just gone silly - not particularly or only with respect to childcare workers, but in general.
I really do feel sorry for young people now, who are expected to jump through endless, expensive educational hoops, whatever their talents or abilities, to be allowed to do anything at all. I mean a lot of the courses are not strictly academic or intellectually difficult (and nor should they be for the job), but more like school work: requiring docility, commitment to neatness and admin and heavy workloads and juggling lots of handouts and coursework and -ugh - infinitely protracted infantilisation and institutionalisation. I feel sorry for teachers in secondary schools and colleges as well, who have to do a job that was never expected of their equivalents 50 years ago: keeping them all locked up and focused and obedient until they are at least eighteen, which for many will be about 8 years after puberty. The majority of people used to leave school and get the hell on with their lives around puberty (14) leaving only the extremely motivated to sit still and swot while hormones raged.
There is no question that it is intellectually easier to pass all these exams than it used to be, but that makes it no temperamentally easier for someone who isn't suited to all the listening and obeying and fiddling about highlighting things in different coloured pens - nor does it make it any cheaper for them or their families when they have no chance of actually getting a job instead.

Also I dont think this is that much of a digression because nursery nurses can be seen as a burden because they need to claim help with childcare etc.

Also SAHMS can be seen as a burden as they are not financial contributing etc.

It all ties in to being with children and the caring for them not being valued, when actually it is one of the most important in terms of the next generation.

However, the education thing notwithstanding, it is the case that childcare costs money and I think society as a whole should contribute to the costs rather than just saying "your kids, your bills" - so a person like noodle who might be net in debt tax-wise could be considered to be a state equivalent of a SAHM - not a drain on resources, just doing an important job that doesn't make money.

x-posted!

I think the thing that annoys childcare workers though as labour said they were going to professionalise the industry so we had more respect and were a little more even with teachers. They provided funding, subsidised wages and provided money for the setting. Then they said all nurseries would need a staff member who holds the relevant degree/early years professional status by 2015 so loads of jobs would be coming up and wages would be going up.

Now they have completed backtracked and are getting rid of people. It was all a trick really as the profession is still viewed the same, and now they have degree members of staff for less than the checkout girl gets on Tescos. You dont need a degree to be a good childcarer but I do believe that the government have changed the goalposts.