Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

'i still see loads of very young mothers on here who have ended up doing all of the childcare and housework, and sleeping in the spare room so that they don't wake the important worker in the house who needs to earn their keep. and then they over-compensate by doubting the competence of a man to look after their baby/ toddler alone.'

I think the people I know dont get that as we are all workers, both the men and women. The men dont earn any more than us per hour (only cause everyone here is on low lol!) I do think however that does make it more even.

I am just as important as he is as I only earn a couple of hundred less than him a month and he needs me to work else he couldnt live. Same as most here and I think that way it isnt seen as pin money. I can see how it is a more difficult situation if one has the much higher earning potential so might think they are bringing in the money the others job is the home.

but it works the same way if both have high earning potential.

so often the default position is 'woman = carer'.

even where there is no financial basis for it. for both partners to have to work, that forces equality. for years working class women have been saying 'bloody middle class feminists don't know they are born. just go out and work like we do. can't see the problem'.

but the problem is that automatic default position. woman= carer.

in your equal parenting model, who takes parental leave if the child is ill? do the men get any hassle at all for calling in to work and saying 'i can't come in today, little george had diarrhoea. i won't be in tomorrow either, as nursery have a 48 hour exclusion policy?' i bet in 80% at least of cases it's the woman that takes the time off work. and then employers say 'oh, women of child-bearing age - we can't afford to employ them'.

it affects everybody. whether you consider yourself a middle class yummy mummy because you have no other option, or not.

if you look at class and gender the position is of course complex. introduce race or culture and even more so. (hence the 'latina' stuff that was discussed earlier)

My husband takes time off for our child being sick. He has the car as I dont ever take my daughter up the doctors cause I have to walk and its not fair on her if shes ill, and I feel guilty at the moment because of ratios at my work. I hate going sick I think it makes me look not commited. My husband doesnt care though he isnt bothered about his job. I also dont like doctors and cant go with her to things like vaccinations as I am scared of them (I know I am a wimp!)

My husband also came to every appointment when I was pregnant, he was the one that took her to get weighed etc. She got eyedrops the other day and I had to wait till he got back to work as I get squeamish about it!

I dont think women= carer in my life or in the life of people I know. I know it might not be the same for everyone cause I only know my area and my life but I dont think it has to be like that.

no, it doesn't have to be like that. and well done for it not being like that in your case.

but please don't think for one minute that makes you the norm. really.

things are improving. slowly.

but pop along to any parent and toddler group, and i'm betting that 50% of the adult clientele are not men.

even in your area.

I just think it is achieveable in this day and age if you want it and put your foot down. I think the woman in the article should put her foot down.

Things like this

'My husband ambles into the house as though it's nothing to do with him," she says. "He will be reading a newspaper and I will be feeding one child and the other will be sitting on my head, and eventually he'll look up and say, 'Do you need some help?' It's like he's wandered into this life involving a wife and two children."'

My husband knows not to dare cross me I would be wearing his balls as earrings. I still dont understand why anyone would think its acceptable and put up with it. That goes for any area of our relationship.

' Namely 1 (very personally) I have tried and though we have conversations about it, it never changes in a substantial enough way to make any kind of impact. In both our heads, I am the responsible one which I believe if it were him would make him the authority but as it is me, makes me feel like the servant and he the one wiht freedom.'

With situations like this you have to take a firm line. Say you put the kids to bed 3 times a week. If he deviates from what he is meant to do when he comes in and get your coat and walk out and say see ya. Come back either very late at night or next morning. If he doesnt like it say well stick do the agreement then he hasnt got a choice then. Even him knowing you will do this will mean he wont dare do it.

I would have no time for a man that did this. I would purposely not get out of bed if I wanted a lie in and had already got up this week. If he shouted you pretend you cant here. Play him at his own game. Some people will walk over people if they think they can get away with it.

I was going to comment on the same, great that you have a supportive husband noodles, but are you sure all the men you see doing nursery drop off..are also so egalitarian at home when if comes to cleaning toilets, laundry, cooking, cleaning etc?

Fair point about the author getting a middle class, older mum bashing...from my, admittedly biased perspective, I couldnt help but think...go back to work, claim your exterior self and stop doing the house work.

I am really interested in Dittany's points, about divorce and male career progression they really resonanted. My male work mates were horrified when it dawned on them that I was going to have manage a family and career on a singles SAlary and still pay for childcare.

On another thread multi pronged' approach is talked about...and it fits here. On a super simplistic level..

1. Personal (work decision agnostic) - what constitutes a good woman/wife /mother in society...do I want to be that person/perform those roles.

2.culture change - how is childcarer/domestic work valued more..still think men have to step up here. 3.organization / structure - real transparent performance management that recognises good women, real flexible working options for men and women

Etc...need to return to bedtime hour.

As an aside, the more I think about it the more I think that NRPs should contribute half of the childcare costs after a divorce.

I'm not saying the journalist isn't entitled to have her feelings, but I think there is a far more interesting way of looking at the way domestic work is done, and by whom, when children come along.

This is a newspaper article, which purports to say something about our domestic/ working situation but I don't think a 'confessional' style is going yo achieve that.

I am interested in different sections of society, the assumptions we make about them..I feel it was an opportunity missed although I recognise many of the difficulties she had.

There is psychological research which found that men don't do their share if domestic work because women won't let them

Do you not get any help with TCs swallowed fly? I think that is the greatest policy brought in by Labour and am truly thankful for it. I think it is brilliant as it helps lots of mums be able to work.

sorry I meant snowmama!

i have no issue with any of that - it's very similar to own advice to women in that situation. it isn't a choice in our relationship, dh gets up earlier than i do, makes the kids packed lunches and their breakfast, gets them out of bed, i wander downstairs and have a cup of tea. most evenings one or the other of us is out doing something (i am a compulsive volunteer and he works late - my work hours at the moment are very specific, his are less so) and so whoever happens to be in is responsible for the arsenic hour. currently, i am in a dead end job with no possibility of taking time off for the kids, he manages a huge workforce and can take whatever time he needs, so he is the one who is the most flexible with days off etc. but i am hugely aware that this is a massive departure from the norm. in my village about 10% of the women work. and all of the men. i have pretty much been ostracised as i am unable to attend day time lunches, for example. i am still an aberration.

but i do understand that there is a huge pressure from society for women (and indeed men) to conform to ridiculously gender-stereotyped roles. just because i do not live like that, does not mean that i think there is no gender bias in society's attitude to child-rearing.

and for a woman who is used to living her life in a gender-neutral way, it will be a hell of a shock to find yourself as a 1950s housewife because you have fallen into the media-driven 'woman as earth-mother' role in the belief that this model has been superceded. particularly when you thought that your carefully chosen supportive of you working and earning and your lovely double income income life style husband turns out to be quite happy for you to run yourself into the ground feeding and cleaning, because it hasn't even occurred to him that his role has to change as well. it's not rocket science, but it's frighteningly normal to end up in this situation.

i think what you are doing is great noodle. hopefully it will catch on. i posted a link to a brain, child article suggesting the same thing yesterday.

I just get frustrated when I read things like this because I think why do people allow it. I suppose it is more complicated than that and I am over simplifying but my mum and dad have always been like that and in turn I do see it as 'normal'. Thats why if you havent had that kind of upbringing yourself it must be hard to deviate from it because we are practically an exactly replica of my parents marriage and my husband is practically the same as my dad.

I do think as well as I have grown up where both parents worked it seems more normal to share the responsibilities. My mum was a nurse when I was growing up so was on night shifts so my dad had to look after us overnight/on the weekends very often. That is why I have seen it as normal and I expect my husband to do the same no questions.

I do think a woman should stand their ground and say this is not acceptable and if it means doing something drastic such as going out and leaving them on their own all night/late in night then do it. I am sure they will appreciate you and change their tune and if they dont they arent worth it and I agree with snowmama/swallowedafly it is better to be a single mum than to put up with that.

I think a lot of it made sense. Dh is really good, in lots of ways. But I think a lot of that is becasue I make damn sure he is. Even so, at weekends he will sit and be absorbed by tv/music/newspaper whilst DS is loving me/plagueing teh life out of me. He generally does he fair share, but it's so true about the toher little things that begin to grind you down:

• always making doctor appointments

-arranging DS's social life# -thinking of things to do -planning meals for DS (DH cooks for us) -constantly sorting out clohtes -liasiing with nursery about various bits and bobs -organising DS's contact with his grandparents (Dh's parents)

I feel like I'm the one who holds everything together. Dh even admits that, apart from the joy a baby brings, his life hasn't actually been changed since DS was born 18 months ago. We both work full time. My life has changed quite drastically:

• up an housr earlier to get us both ready for nursery/work

-don't get to work as early due to nursery drop off -never stay late at work/put on revision lessons etc cos of baby

• don't start my homework til baby goes to bed etc, etc

Phew, didn't intend this to be so long.

Finally: the number of people who say,"Oh, isn't it good the way that AStronaut70 helps with the baby?" Helps? wtf is 'helps'? DS os our baby - not just mine!

'in my village about 10% of the women work'

Here women work and if you dont work for years it is looked down upon in my area a lot. That usually comes from being seen as being fully supported on benefits if they dont work. Its been drummed in to me that not working isnt an option all the way through my childhood so its strange how things I suppose expectations are completely different here.

I feel here there is huge social implications to being a SAHM.

women are pretty much prevented from working in the areas i have spent my adult life. all british. all working or middle class. due to a combination of factors - the fact that is a male dominated workplace, the fact that the only jobs available for women are poorly paid or non-existent, the fact that the male partners are likely to disappear for weeks or months on end, leaving the women carrying the childcare can in any case, the fact that employers know they will get you to the point of being trained and capable, and then you will leave, so they will have to start all over again with the next woman lucky enough to have persuaded them to emply her... etc etc etc.

so women are either financially compromised by their lack of career progression, or the fact that they can't get a job anyway, or they can't get ad-hoc childcare for when the dh is away. and the system demands that the women be able to cope in any and all situations. flexibility prevents employment in itself.

of course there are exceptions. (i'm not one of them - as i said, my job is poorly paid with no prospects, and i'm leaving in ten days. through choice, it's another three months until we are moving, but in the vain hope of bettering my employment chances, i'm finally going to finish the course i started three years ago.) but i know what the rule is. but then i know what society's rules are about childcare as well, and i choose to buck that trend. there is no possibility of an equal career progression though. can't buck that one. not yet. still trying.