Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

I think childcare workers hsould be paid more, educated better and given a higher status accordingly. The low pay just indicates how much society values this work ie: Not very much.

Thank you Norman. I think most childcare workers think that even though I am not much less qualified than a teacher but working for minimum wage. I am seen as worthless, and providing minus to society.

Dittany yes and I am namechanger. (A few times actually) but stand by what I said in that thread to that men do want to help (in general), heres way of doing things is more equal due to the set up and that I dont believe at all that all men are out to do us over. As many men I know are not like that. Anyway not bringing up old threads on here.

Well I would call myself a feminist but I will join the noodle and sieglinde and say that my marriage to dh is completely equal and that this is possible.

DH has from the beginning done his fair share of the home stuff. He does a lot of our home paperwork/he admin, plans and does the food shopping, and 60% of the cooking. Makes drs and dental appointments for ds. Deals with all that school paperwork stuff that comes home everyday, sets up playdates and organises and takes ds to activities. He doesn't do it all but he does at least half of all that. He also does housework when it is needed not just when I tell him.

He takes days off work for ds related things when he needs to. When he is away he is the one to stock up the fridge/freezer as he know I dislike food planning and cooking so much.

I did look after ds for the first year and didn't work but this in no way meant that I carried on doing everyting for ds after going back to work . DH shared a lot when I was home and when I went back to work we went back to the 50:50 split on home stuff that had always existed between us; it was just that work relating to ds was now part of that split.

BUT

1 I knew that society being what it is, that having a child was likely to seriously test our "equal partnership. So before we decided to have a child I made it clear that this sharing of roles was expected and nothing less would be tolerated by me. I absolutely would not have married him ( we married when I was pregnant) however much I loved him if I had thought he wouldnt do his share post-children. This really was non negotiable as I has already had one marriage fail due to this problem.

2 Dh has more than lived up to my expectations on this but there is no doubt that his high flying academic career has suffered as a result. My career has also suffered as the result of having a child but as my job meant less to me, it was less of a sacrifice for me. Dh rightly or wrongly hangs a lot of his self-esteem on his job so this has been hard for him.

3 Our lives are less organised and run less smoothly than ones where roles are more divided along gender lines. We have to communicate more as we both need to know if ds needs new shoes, or is due for a dentist appointment (for example) and who is most able to sort it out.

I think therfore that it is possible to have a equal partnership but it is often very very difficult to achieve, especially if it is not seen as an absolute priority by both partners before getting married and/or having children.

I know it sounds very "unromantic" but in my view, romantic love and the ideas associated with it has almost as big a role as patriarchy and capitalism in preventing "equality" in sexual relationships.

'romantic love and the ideas associated with it has almost as big a role as patriarchy and capitalism'

surely feminist analysis has totally argued that romantic love is one of the tools used by the patriarchy?

As I said I am a feminist. I was just trying to point out that it is possible to have an equal sexual relationship but that it is very hard and that it involves quite a lot of "sacrifice" for both parties including the view that "romantic love" trumps everything.

In my view that "sacrifice" is worth it. I do not agree with the view that we need to change "men" but I do think we need to change the system. I also believe that there are men out there who are genuinely able to see this and who actually want to. I admit I might be biased though.

I think in general a lot of men do like the fact they can spend time with their kids. I think it benefits them as well. Most would rather be with their kids than cleaning the street or doing sweaty hard graft. That is why I like it in my life where a lot of people share the 2 roles of worker and parent.

I do get sick of women who say: "I made sure before I got pregnant, that he would be xyz"

Do you not know that 75% of domestic violence, starts in pregnancy or in the first year after having a baby?

It's reasonable to suppose that the same is true of any other form of abuse or misbehaviour - chances are, men who are going to misbehave at all, will only do so once you are tied to them in the most permanent and emotionally involved way possible - by having their child.

Thousands of women think they've made sure they've got a good'un, before they get pregnant. The only difference between them and you, is that they made a mistake.

Oh there's another difference - they're not smug.

So you are a SAHM and poor than swallowedafly? Hope you get no state support for scrounging for just bringing up your kid and not contributing to society

HerBeX

It may well be that most domestic violence starts in pregnancy but before I got pregnant I planned for the possibility that I might need to leave dh if he did not follow through. I would have left him for much less than hitting me. I would have (and would still) leave if I thought he thought of me in any way not his complete equal and showed that in his behaviour.

I am not being smug. I do think that having children in our society is a very risky business for women in more ways than one and I have been incredibly luck. I am however pointing out that it is possible to have 1 or possibly children in an equal partnership. I think it gets even more difficult the more children you have.

However in order to do so a woman has to start from the premise that it is very possible that she will need to bring up her children on her own and to plan accordingly. If you start from that premise anyone who hits you won't be doing it again as you will leave.

It is possible to start from that premise and still hold out the hope that it will work out and also to love your partner but to place having an equal partnership above that love. I am not saying this is easy but it is possible.

noodle deliberately misinterpreting someone? surely not?

Well I dont see it as it is because surely any SAHMS who do get help to stay at home cost more to society? I get no help with housing benefit, tax credits just cover childcare, I have never claimed any other benefit ever. I have worked since I was 14, I only had 10 days maternity leave.

I am going to become a Social Worker in a few years after the little ones are at school. By doing a masters that I wouldnt have got on without the degree. I also as I said work with some of the most disadvantaged kids in society.

Its their fault that society pays me so little for what I do, not mine. I stand by it was not a poor investment.

I am also glad to see on this thread that no one agreed with your opinion swallowed a fly. Rightly so chldcare becoming a graduate led profession will benefit all women

"before I got pregnant I planned for the possibility that I might need to leave dh if he did not follow through"

That is extremely unusual and I salute you for it, but most women don't have babies with men they think they might need to elave. It just doesn't occur to them. Also, I think you need to take into account, that most epople simply don't recognise emotional abuse for what it is, so they would see it as unreasonable to leave a man who practices it, simply because they don't define it as abuse. And society tells women all the time, that ti's their job to uphold relationships, so when a relationship fails for what seems quite a trivial reason to people who don't know what EA is (ie most of us), women are very heavily criticised for it and in fact most relationships where EA is present, don't, fail in that sense, for just that reason - women don't feel they have the right to end a relationship just because they are unahppy.

Anyway I digress. Am rambling now.

I know you are not scrounging because I value parents looking after their kids and childcare even if they are seen as 'a logically poor investment in financial terms'.

Finance is not the only way to benefit society and I still take offence to what you said about me doing a degree. I dont begrudge any SAHM any help or support financially as they are bringing up the next generation, regardless of if they arent paying as much financially back in. Shame you dont.

Yep give up trying to make SaF out to be an anti-feminist woman hating loon Noodle, we all know her too well to fall for that crap.

I get 25 hours a week childcare over 5 days. My tax credit was £114 a week and that pays for childcare. Now with the 15 hours entitlement I recieve £48 a week. I get no other benefits.

I just think that it is important to have all mums SAHM, working and ones who do the caring eg childcarers, care assistants, nursees etc to be respected for what they do and the difficult challenges they face. I dont think paying out for them to do degrees which benefits their jobs although they work for peanuts in difficult circumstances means I am a drain on society.

I also support any mums who get help at the bottom. As it is hard and any support they get is a worthy contribution to me.