Article on Motherhood in Guardian

[Blackduck]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/mar/26/modern-mother-equality-illusion

Have only skim read, but usual comments!

REPEAT DITTANY

I live in a place where men visiblely do a lot childcare as you see it every day. You also see men at Surestart groups, parents advisory boards, doing drop offs. I work in the building I know what happens. I never said it was completely equal I said its more equal than a place where the man has to do long hours and a woman stays at home. It is because both parents are working, men dont usually do that much overtime/if any, they arent going on business trips, and a lot of couples do different shifts so the dad takes over.

In my own life my friends man in general do a lot in the home with the children. Except for the ones I talk about. I dont know why you are out to disprove me as such.

The site is the one that says in your area what crime there is on that month. It was recently brought out and posted in Inthenews topic? On there it said my area is overall very safe. I said I didnt know if it wasnt reported. Obviously not how could I am just talking about crimes that occur in my area that I am aware of. eg through media, crime stats.

When I am keen to change things, agree with most of what people of said, and have previously stated my area is different to many. I still have no answers to how en masse men will change to a system that doesnt benefit them? Or who has the power to do this?

Also around here we are all ecomomically equal but only because we are all on the minimum wage with no benefits, overtime, bonuses, pensions etc. So ecomically we are the same all though at the lowest dominator but that is the area, not neccesrily the jobs.

So Noodles a liar and a troll?

That's not very nice is it?

Dittany I agree with other posters that if you are in an area where men and women share the care then it is more equal. It is, many posters agree on this. I am just saying this happens in my area a lot more due to the reasons outlined in the post I wrote. I think it would be good if this happened nationally/globally. As I think it is a good idea and means the man sees more of his kids, the woman has a job and life outside the home. I would support any policies that would make this a reality for all women.

My relationship is equal. I have stated that a lot and again due to the fact my husband looks after my daughter whilst Im at work/out. Is able to take time off for sickness with her etc. I think a lot of men want to do this but cant in many areas but am glad that it is an option here due to jobs available/differing shifts and dual working households. That isnt him being a hero, it is because he enjoys it (like I think many men do if they have the chance) and because of the way the area works.

Anyway back to what the thread is about which is how do we make men take responsibility when they dont want to? I think overall most men do want to? So I definitely support more flexible working optionsWhat would be the best methods? I still think the best is good home role models, hopefully by people living it and it becomes more normal (which it has moved forward in some areas then societally it will be pushed forward).

In the fact that some women do get frustrated by full time childcare then I would like to see childcare settings continue to be improved. I think the labour government did actually do a great job at this. They have improved standards, there are more graduates in the provision with a background on child development and there is a wider range of services supprting families. It does look like this is going to be cut back but I hope it does just trim waste and not ruin all our progress! I think if there is a system that could be allowed so women could continue working that would be good. I appreciate it is much more difficult if you have to pay for it yourself but with cuts dont know how that could be supported. I will say though that I think providing/subsidising childcare costs is a short term thing and if the women have been trained to do something it is a shame that they have to leave the jobs that love.

Also I said DV did happen in my area as I work with the families of DV. I was just talking about rape in general and was saying crime attacks are low but I didnt know ones that werent reported obviously. I still stand by here there is a lot less crime that many other areas overall. We do have a lot of poverty/deprevation here though and I am in 1 area top 5% of uk.

Just out of interest, noodle, how many of the minimum wage refuse collectors/street sweepers etc have a degree in refuse collecting or street sweeping?

Dont know but my husband has a business degree on the minimum wage. A lot of men I know who work in shops as managers on £6.50 have degrees. A lot of people in general here have degrees as you get paid to do it so you might as well. Doesnt really mean you get higher wages but its good for learning/self development.

Who pays them to get degrees?

What a shit situation all round. The whole 50% of people going to university was a horrendous misdirection of money and massaging of the unemployment figures. And I lean politically to the left. Anyway, that's off topic.

What would happen if you lost the funding for your childcare? And the others that send their kids to your work lost theirs?

I mean you get student loans and stuff so it is about the same as what you would be earning full time ifyou get student loan and work part time. I love the fact that I got my degree because I have a much deeper knowledge in childhood studies in a subject I love. I do a job that I enjoy and I am able to get training in what I want to do in the end. I can also offer the care and knowledge to the children and hopefully change the lives of disadvanatged children. I think it was more than worth it for the government.

Husbands and lots of people round here probably not so worth doing, but that isnt their fault there just isnt any decent paying jobs in general.

If we lost our funding for childcare we would all go on the dole I suppose, unless you had family that could cover all shifts. What else could you do? A lot do have jobs that completely are on opposite shifts but many have some that overlap and not others. Say we get mums and dads where mum does childcare on some days, dad on others, nursery on others due to one or both being at work.

I would march to downing street if they took away my childcare!

Don't worry Swallowed the poor won't be able to do degrees for much longer so you don't have to get too indignant about it.

As I said swallowedafly I work in a deprived area often with children with limited life chances. I do it for the minimum wage, no pension, no housing benefit, no perks, no extra cash, no cars, no trips away, insurance, no maternity package etc.

I do extra work for free, I paint the place, do loads of things at the weekends/out of hours. I live for the kids, its not just a job. I dont want financial reward and I dont care about being at the bottom of society but I think that degree was an investment and if it changes the lives of one child it will please me.

By the fact that labour helped do this to my industry it has given 1000s of childcare staff the skills to provide an excellent service. We are no longer 'babysitters'. We are providing care and education for the under 5s, and I think we do it well. Hopefully by doing this childcare will be improved continouslly and in turn women like yourself can benefit from it, if you choose to carry on with your careers. Then that means more women in the workforce and I am happy to be on a low wage to support this women in doing their jobs and providing what I believe to be high quality provision. In return some of those support me by providing money towards my uni costs and childcare.

I like the way you think me being a childcarer provides minus to society!!

It facilitates working women to go back to work

What would you do with your kids if there were no childcarers?

Would you put your kids with any idiot of the street or do you want them to have a background in child development, edcuation etc in the same way as a teacher!

Also in my case working with SureStart it improves the life chances of seriously disadvantaged children!!!

I cant even believe you just said that and it is said men dont value childcare!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Women shouldn't be allowed to do degrees and become sahms eiher then?

Some serious snobbery on this thread.

Sorry I know this is bad form to post without reading the whole thread, but I can't stop myself.

I've got to sometime this afternoon and have to say: Noodle, who gives a flying fuck about ironing? Except Stepford wives and (ex)military? A man who does the ironing - so what. We don't know where the ironing board is. If my DP said "I'll spend the afternoon doing chores" and then I came home and found he had been ironing I would really think he was taking the piss. I'd ask him whether he'd polished the plants in the garden as well, and wonder why the hell he hadn't done anything useful.

Btw used to wonder (you are Sunny, aren't you) why you were so invested in insisting that there is no systemic disadvantage for women. Now I think it's for the same reason as anyone else: you think you've done as well as could be done according to the old rules, ie bagged a good man, and you'd rather boast about that than risk seeing the goal posts moved. It clicked when I saw the post about your proposal. Ah! It dawned upon me: this is just slightly restyled romance-boasting. Your Prince Charming does the ironing and lets you go out on the lash, so nothing in the world need change - it's like people planning big weddings getting very cross when people mention feminism.

read the whole thread vezzie

noodle, I picked up on the degree thing not to have a go at you, but out of wonderment that doing a work-related degree for you meant nothing in terms of wage uplift. The people doing street cleaning don't have to put in all that effort and get the same wage. Because childcare is not valued, even if you (personally) love it. Which is the whole point of the OP.

Hi, I'm 37 and have just finished paying off my student loan from when I was a student back in the 90's. I am a SAHM. A drain on society.

AM there are many people with degrees doing minimum wage or just above, jobs. It's not a golden ticket to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory.

Well swallowdafly doesnt vaue it! I am shocked a woman would say what she has just said. If childcare is so easy and useless why do you all find it so hard? but apparently I am a drain on society! Nice to know.

I dont mind too much ayerobot about not getting a wage lift really. Some people have to be at the bottom but I just wish sometimes there was a smaller gap between the rich and poor. I think whilst my husband and his friends jobs didnt necessarily require a degree they are not providing a minus to society!

Also I dont care about financial reward but would like childcarers to be valued for the difficult job they do. I think women hold that opinion though just a much as men. Your thick if your a childcarer worker right?